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KRKIIIIIIIIIIII 10/21/2018 5:03 AM
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05:03
Ha
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Second or third depending on whether you go by user or message!
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[STATEMENT OF ENTROPY CONTENT OF WASTE FLUID]
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So, have charged particle pushed magsail been considered in Eldraeverse as some kind of weapon system? One that can achieve several percent of cee and be constructed essentially out of a bunch of fusion shaped charges lying in a track. And we've reached staggering five messages on here.
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Eight Now
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NTS talk should have happened here
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@Enderminion Seven, nine.
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Ten! And you should talk about your Casaba-driven Magsail Kinetic-Kill shots here, @Kerr. they sound like great AKV weapons.
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Alright. The concept on itself is relatively simple, a casaba howitzer or similiar nuclear shaped charge would emit charged particles in form of a high velocity plasma. A magnetic sail or a magnetic mirror would deflect the incomming particles by 180°. If the sail has a similiar mass to the plasma it will reach a final velocity similiar to the plasma beam in the first place.
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A 1 MT casaba howitzer massing 1000 kg and emitting a x thousand km/s plasma beam with an efficiency of 5%. When taking Matterbeams futuristic megaton lance estimate we have a 20.92 kg plasma beam travelling at 10,000 km/s from an device massing maybe 400-500 kg. By placing a magnetic sail massing about 20 kg in front of the shaped charge it will be accelerated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_collision gives us an formula to estimate the final velocity it will reach from an elastic collision. v = 0m/s ( 20 kg - 20.92 kg) + 2* 20.92 kg* 1e7 m/s / 20.92kg + 20 kg. = 10,220 km/s. Because the beam only moves at 10,000 km/s and is a collection of particles it will cut off at 10,000 km/s.
An elastic collision is an encounter between two bodies in which the total kinetic energy of the two bodies after the encounter is equal to their total kinetic energy before the encounter. Perfectly elastic collisions occur only if there is no net conversion of kinetic energ...
12:42
The efficiency of converting the beam energy into kinetic energy is about 95.6% here. (divide the sail mass by the plasma mass when the velocity is the same). The shaped charge unit had a yield of 1,000 kT and now we have to a high velocity projectile with no dispersion and a kinetic yield of 191.2 kT. In this case the sail works as a range extension and also helps with maximizing the crater depth. ' (edited)
12:45
The second tier of this concept, that I've came up with yesterday morning, uses DHe3 fusion instead. Some months ago I've done some research and calculated the velocities of each fusion product for several fusion reactions, in order to estimate their isp. DHe3 creates two products: a helium ion/ alpha particle and a free proton. Because momemtum is conserved we have a proton with 50% of the momentum and of the 80% kinetic energy of the reaction flying away at staggering 19.8% c. ' (edited)
12:51
To further increase the effectiveness of the sail concept, I've increased the amount of terminal projectiles you have. I added submunitions. For this reason I needed to extend the acceleration distance dramatically and use a relatively large sail to minimize the required relative mass of the superconducting ring. A track made out of DHe3 shaped charges is placed along a path, placed there by either some missile or some smaller ship nearby. When activated the deuterium and helium-3 ions fuse and produce the necessary protons, those are "filtered" out and focused into a relatively short range plasma beam. Each unit accelerates the sail until it has reached its final velocity of 0.2c. The amount of required fusion fuel to accelerate a 10 ton sail to 0.2c is atleast 50 tons of DHe3, fused completly and with the protons efficiently extracted and focused. But even with a total efficiency of 10% for both fusion and extraction we are talking about using 500 tons of DHe3 to create a 4.3 GT projectile, which is moving at a fifth of the speed of light. (edited)
12:57
The track would be only necessary if you worry about acceleration gradients and forces destroying your smart payload. You could probably do a lot better with antimatter velocity wise, even use the exhaust of your ships to accelerate those sails but it will get rather challenging with time.
13:02
Yeah no, antimatter shouldn't be really useful at this. If you were somehow able to create near perfect gamma-ray mirrors however, then we might start speculating on using antimatter driven projectiles with near perfect mass-energy to kinetic conversion efficiency.
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So. Any physicsy folks out there can talk about what happens to a Kerr-Newman black hole in the limit when you keep pumping more momentum into it?
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(When it hits the spin limit, that is.)
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Oi @Kerr Late night physics shift for you! πŸ˜‰
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@Unknown And I thought I could peacefully get done with my altered carbon list. But when it comes to Kerr-Newmann blackholes..
15:23
@Overmind If you mean the spin limit I think you mean, then it's relatively simple. Because that spin limit is defined by what would happen next.
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The one where the event horizon suddenly develops an imaginary radius, I'm thinking of.
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Well, a kerr black hole has really two event horizons.
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Ah, yeah, the second one that defines the ergosphere.
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The cauchy horizon and the event horizon, the faster they spin the closer they get. Beyond the spin limit the singularity will be exposed.
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wait, I thought the twin horizon thing was for charged holes?
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The charged ones can apparently go über-weird.
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That far I got. πŸ˜ƒ What I'm wondering is what we know about the consequences of attempts to push one beyond that limit. Most sources I've dug up just go with "naked singularities can't happen, so this is impossible; the laws of physics won't let it spin any faster", but it's the detail of how that works out in practice I'm curious about. (edited)
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Well, for one there is that fact that you could observe an infinitely dense material.
15:32
And I am not sure if it's "caused" by the event horizon or the spacetime curvature. But inside a black hole space and time switch places.
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I just realized that I hadn't thought about what the gravity would be for a naked singularity
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intense
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Context: one of the convenient uses for non-local momentum transfer, if you have such a thing and a very large momentum sink, is as tremendously effective armor ("singularity-locking"). In the 'verse, that's what makes stargates very, very hard to kill; your weapon touches it and stops dead in its reference frame, and the gate kernel spins a little bit faster.
πŸ“Œ 1
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sure from a distance you get standard stuff, but close up...... I think we are in territory where normal black holes are "simple"
15:35
and no event horizon....... escape velocity is...... what?
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So what I'm looking to figure out is what happens when you throw a small moon at it, or otherwise manage to push the system beyond the limit with a giant infusion of momentum.
πŸ“Œ 1
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I mean, general relativitiy doesn't seem to say much about a naked singulraity on itself.
15:35
Just more intense.
15:36
Things bet messy as soon you consider quantum mechanics, quantum field theory and semiclassical gravity.
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@Overmind I think we are in the realm of "The universe gives you an error message in the form of large amounts of inconveinient energy"
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"An problem has occoured" "Man, I should have installed that damn quantum gravity driver."
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Well, I figured there'd be a strong likelihood of a failure mode along the lines of "the kernel liberates all of its mass-energy in one go; kiss your star system goodbye and warn the neighbors". :D But, y'know, if there are more interesting options around, I'd like to have 'em to play with.
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Failure modes for stargates/wormholes or? (edited)
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Well, of kernels/Kerr-Newman holes used in this way in general. That's just the major application of them that got me to the question-asking point.
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What's the function of these kernels?
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Twofold: one is being a massive momentum-sink and energy store, and the other is - since they're made in entangled pairs - to use the postulated relationship between entanglement and quantum-foam-level wormholes to let the gate connect reliably to its twin.
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15:46
So you create them as Quantum black holes and feed them? Or do they interact ?
15:46
Option 1 seems like the simpler one.
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The Susskind-Maldacena hypothesis, that is. ( https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/wormholes-quantum-entanglement-link/ , since I don't have the original paper any more.) It fits well with the underlying 'verse assumption that the correct QM interpretation is NLHV.
The new theory connects quantum entanglement with Einstein’s general relativity
πŸ“Œ 1
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Sounds like ER=EPR?
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Basically @Kerr a gate kernel is an entangled black hole the stargate draws a T-variable wormhole from to shunt one volume of space-time with a spaceship in it to its pair, without a need for a continous wormhole connection.
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15:51
Thus allowing a wormhole web because each stargate transfer is T-flexible.
πŸ“Œ 1
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Sure, you just make it temporarily traversable then.
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@Kerr Yeah, it is. (I try not to get too specific about the engineering details, but the weylforge handwavium is loosely described as involving a couple of small-moon-mass Bose-Einstein condensates undergoing a controlled implosion. At this point, space magic happens.)
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(ER=EPR is used in my work Apeiron Terminus for modern wormhole engineering and their spin of a sci-fi quantum entanglement comm.)
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As said, you just create a pair of quantum black and inflate them. You could in theory also use existing ones.
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So the short and inaccurate version: the entanglement creates the wormholes from A to A'; the gate just inflates/deflates them on demand when transit is required.
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The interactions with the gravitational force should also be capable of entangling two black holes.
15:55
I thought you had entangled black holes A and B, and for use the mouth are made traversable and are inflated by the gate.
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Doing some Physics Idiotβ„’ reading, apparently the best failure mode for a Kerr-Newman hole reaching spin limit is it going kraboom spectacularly.
15:56
Or at least, radiating enough energy so that it is below the spin limit again, rather.
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Probably just CCS.
15:56
Above the spin rate the singulraity is naked and cosmic censorships comes to your help.
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As a side note: they do have what we would probably call regular wormhole tech. (Had that first, in fact; I figure it's easier to get to.) It's just that given how difficult it is to get anything but a single-rooted tree that channels all long-distance traffic right past your capital, Ring Dynamics noped right out of the thought of using that for interstellar transit until every other possibility had been explored.
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Then a lady linked up with an ASI and cooked up some Mad Science that lead to them engineering supermassive QEC collapsators for fun. And profit. (edited)
15:58
And general awesomeness along the lines of "weβ€˜d like to ship something moon-massed to 13 star systems nearby."
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Dynamic wormholes are still complicated.
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That reminds me @Overmind did they manufacture the Kernels outside their home system from the start?
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So we're gonna need some real big fusion drives.
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Eh. Light sail!
15:59
Light sails all the way!
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The configuration shouldn't allow a CTC by any mean.
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Just way out in the Oort. Where there are now some notable holes.
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Prefix - laser (edited)
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Ah, I was just wondering about the power infrastructure given that the Eldrae home systems Whose Name I Donβ€˜t Recall IIRC doesnβ€˜t have a Dyson swarm.
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Yeah, I have some notes on how deeply entwined the time-synchronization system is with the stargate control systems, to prevent any accidental forming of CCLs.
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Plus that T-flexibility that leds conflicts slide past each other, apparently.
16:02
Though, how does the reference frame trap gizmo work?
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Not sure if my brain is already in total shutdown mode for sleep, but I am thinking of potential delays between gate openings.
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(Aboard a spacecraft using a stargate)
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Well, there ain't no rule that says you couldn't accidentally form a CCL due to drift if you just went around opening wormholes randomly. Hence the need for sync.
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Closed causality loop?
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Yep.
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Eh, should still be problematic.
16:04
I mean, any CMB photon will get infinitely amplified by any closed causal loop.
16:05
Which is the most physicial CPC argument.
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@Unknown Very well, thank you. πŸ˜ƒ That message popping up on your blue box (i.e., the widget that talks to the gate) just means that the gate's got a lock on a wormhole that will get you your destination at the right t, in the empire-time reference frame. (Fiddling with that step - skew-framing - is what lets you try to do Stupid Time Travel Tricks, which might even not kill you. Omitting that step... well, that'll kill you pretty definitely. Urban legends about starships which screwed this up and met dinosaurs/were eaten by the Cold Ones/fell right out of the universe/made bank on next year's stock prices aside.) (edited)
πŸ“Œ 1
16:09
@Kerr Definitely problematic. Ring Dynamics is all kinds of paranoid about the potential for a CCL appearing in their network and blowing up all kinds of stuff.
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Wasn't there something about causal loops being allowed?
16:10
Even students doing that as part of some trip, IIRC.
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Sorry, my misspoke. There's nothing that would prevent you from forming one; it's just that the consequences would be catastrophic for the system.
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Pretty sure the trick about doing local causality violations in the Eldraeverse is avoiding a causality warfare dogpile.
16:11
You need to be the first on the draw and hope not too many other people shoot or the universe will throw a ThatsEnough.reset and smack all parties concerned silly.
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Well, leaving aside for a moment the particular case of wormholes forming CCLs, the causality rules for the 'verse are that you can't ever violate global causality. You can, however, violate local causality and get away with it. Which mostly means that you're allowed predestination paradoxes, but not grandfather paradoxes. Or that while every cause has an effect and vice versa, they don't necessarily have to be in that order from any particular observer's viewpoint (which is already the case in standard relativity).
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16:17
And you can't change the past: it's already happened, and if you were there, you were there, and will be there along your personal timeline, but you are guaranteed to do whatever it was you already did. (As the enforcement mechanism for this, I invoke the mechanism proposed by.... shit, someone who's name I can't remember right now, but they proposed destructive interference of wavefunctions as the enforcer of consistency protection. Basically, anything that would create an inconsistency gets a forced probability of zero.)
πŸ“Œ 1
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Hmmm. That mechanism is primarily responsible for Zero Engages and causality protection in AT.
16:19
Hence the term "Zero Engageβ€œ. Itβ€˜s actually shortened from "Zero Probability (Warp Propulsion) Engage Attempt" (edited)
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It's going to be responsible for the equivalent of a Zero Engage when people in the 'verse get around to inventing the frameslip drive in about another 700 years.
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Itβ€˜s also sort of how they can see causality conflict coming - if you check carefully, you can see a Zero Engage waveform probability collapse coming. Thatβ€˜s what usualy allows a drive to safe-fail into an abort state. (edited)
16:21
If the safe-fail fails, then... well, the rules only state that the probability of interference is zero. How that happens is a variable.
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@Unknown Variations on which theme is how the 'verse got the probability kiln and UNMOVED MONAD.
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Maybe you blow up. Maybe you get swallowed whole into a black hole collapse. Maybe you shoot off into a parallel universe. Maybe you just get burped out 500 years later.
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Predestination paradox is still problematic.
16:24
If one photon can get back itself to stimulate emission we now got two photons, then tree and so forth. Instantly from our perpsective.
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Given that AT is an RPG, of course, a good warp drive failover makes for nice fish out of waters experiences if the campaign director so desires.
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I assume wormholes in this setting also conserve mass? Getting lighter when object leave it.
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In theory, you can even stage "time travel" with a bad drive engage (though itβ€˜s a parallel universe given ATs strict chronological protection laws.)
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Yep. Although from the point of view of the stargate user, the gate's designed to compensate for those fiddly details, so it's only the people using "conventional" wormholes who have to worry about it personally.
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Would be interesting krasnikov tubes sometime in a setting.
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Regarding predestination paradoxes: yeah, that's why you can't set up one using a loop of wormholes, or other continuously connected method; you get the whole virtual particle loop with the endlessly redoubling intensity and catastrophic collapse somewhere along the line.
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Not sure how non continous methods help? You need sync all up so this can't ever happen.
16:30
As soon as anything can double exponentially, it will.
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With a discontinuous path, you don't get the automatic catastrophic collapse from looping virtual particles. It's still possible to induce one if you put something in a position to double exponentially, etc., but since that creates an inconsistency, consistency protection censors that out for you and leaves behind only the worldlines where you didn't do that.
πŸ“Œ 1
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So, just on the off-chance we have some around, I repost β€” Any physical chemists around feel like speculating on the properties of partially muonated atoms? Specifically, if you take, say, a lead nucleus, drop enough muons onto it that the electrons needed to make up the remaining charge should give it the chemical properties of iron - how does the presence of the muons affect the electron orbitals, and how does the resulting material differ in physical properties? My physics ain’t quite up to this one, sad to say.
18:17
(And then there’s the really fascinating question of whether you could, hypothetically, load up an Hg nucleus with 40 muons and 40 electrons, and have it form bonds with both muonic and electronic matter as if it were Zr, using it as a form of exotic matter solder. But that’s for next week.)
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Morgrim Moon 12/03/2018 6:21 PM
as in muons replacing protons, or electrons?
18:23
I'm more organic than phy chem, tbh. My first instinct is that the muons would end up shielding the electrons in such a way that they'd be attached by a hope and a prayer, and you'd end up with something prefering unnaturally high transition states or possibly acting a touch like an eisens-boson condensate
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Replacing electrons.
18:27
- argh, and now I have dinner. Back in a bit.
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Uuuuuh hmmmm. Hmmmm. 'Dis a tricky one. I could ask one of my physical chemistry professors, but a.) I have to look at which of those to ask and b.) thatβ€˜ll be a bit of a longer-term process. And obviously c.) no garuantee youβ€˜ll get an answer, nessecarily.
23:09
Generally however, thereβ€˜s one simple rule - only Valenz electron orbitals matter for chemical properties, and any orbitals below that are filled, thus energetically stable, and unable to form molecule orbitals. That rule should AFAIK principally uphold no matter your muon-to-electron ratio.
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Yeah. It makes the chemical properties weird, since Pauli exclusion gives it basically two different sets of orbitals, as I understand it. So you end up with elements that behave chemically like the element with a matching number of electrons, not counting the muons.
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Well basically, thereβ€˜s a bunch of different rules.
23:13
The number of electron orbitals possible is first of all just defined by electro-dynamics. Negative orbit charges to positice core charges.
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So you make half-muonic iron, it acts like aluminum, with aluminum's shells and valence electrons -- or so i'm told.
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After that you get the electron orbitals, 1s, 2s, 2p, 3s, 3p, 4s....
23:15
Those are defined by a main quantum number that basically describes the electrons frequency around the core; a higher frequency means a higher energy state.
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Which is pretty cool on its own, but having all that charge buried down there in the (much closer but parallel) muon orbitals seems to me unlikely to leave the energy states of the electron orbitals unaffected. At which point my knowledge of chemistry/physics runs into a wall.
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Then thereβ€˜s two quantum numbers that decsribe orbital geometry, lastly thereβ€˜s a spin state - one spin and one anti-spin may share the same orbital.
23:18
Anyway, to cometh to the point- orbitals get energetically stable as they fill up. Only the outermost shell is involced in any chemical reactions. Thatβ€˜s the valenz electron orbitals. I.e. 2s, 2p, for the second period. The orbitals below donβ€˜t matter.
23:19
So even assuming you do muonate below-valenz, it wonβ€˜t do much. The orbitals are energetically stable and wonβ€˜t be involved.
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0111narwhalz 12/03/2018 11:19 PM
Can muons and electrons interact in parallel, or do only the outer of the two do interactions at any given time?
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Now, about the muons in the valenz electron shell. The biggest problem I see is that VSEPR doesnβ€˜t work out, and that electron orbitals and muon orbitals will not interact properly - due to a muons higher De-Brogile-frequency, its electron orbital will be shrunk compared to the electron orbitals.
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Morgrim Moon 12/03/2018 11:21 PM
I think having muons in the inner shells will super-shield the outer ones
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If the answer comes back that the muon orbitals have basically no effect on the electron orbitals other than screening the relevant amount of the charge on the nucleus, I'd be happy with that answer. I just want to know, belike.
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That suggests electron orbitals have bond priority and an uggly tendency to "squeeze" muon orbitals out of the way.
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Morgrim Moon 12/03/2018 11:21 PM
It'd be more behaving like first row elements
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A muon orbital just canβ€˜t have that large of an envelope. Thatβ€˜s the point. But it also means that in the Valenz Shell Electron Pair Repulsion theory, theyβ€˜ll have a problem being... well, established.
23:23
Smaller orbital means all other orbitals will come closer.
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When it comes to muon matter, it's a decent approximation to treat it as denser electron matter when interacting with itself, but hybrid matter... gets weird. When I ran the first part past a physicist, the understanding I came away with is that in pure muon matter, the orbitals are very similar, just much closer in. Muonic helium has what looks like a tiny 1s orbital with the muons in it.
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Yep, thatβ€˜s the basics, really.
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From that same conversation, my understanding - which is looser because I wasn't really thinking about hybrid matter at the time - was that if you take a helium nucleus and award it one muon and one electron, you have the tiny 1s with the muon in it, something more like a regular 1s with the electron in it, and an atom that acts kinda like hydrogen when interacting with regular matter.
23:28
With the caveat that this ignores interactions between the muon and the electron.
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The other problem is: We have an electron and a muon sharing the same orbital.
23:29
That does... awkward stuff to the 1s orbital geometry.
23:30
Also, a chemical bond across the electrons and muons both may be unstable.
23:30
Youβ€˜d definitely accumulate superflous electric charge if your description is what happens, because youβ€˜d get two molecular orbitals with one electron pair each.
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Well, they were suggesting that given the differences in mass and Pauli exclusion, you'd have, essentially, two distinct 1s orbitals - call 'em 1sm and 1se.
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That would be quite the polarized molecule.
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Wait, what? Where would the extra electrons come from?
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Valenz kovalent bonds.
23:32
Basically, the way the "classical" chemical bonds work is that atoms "share" electrons in the valenz shell across the molecule orbitals.
23:33
Thatβ€˜s why natural Hydrogen is an H2.
23:33
A 1s1 atom orbital and a 1s1 atom orbital make a 1s2 molecule orbital.
23:34
That makes the electron shell of Hydrogen like Helium and thus very energetically stable.
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0111narwhalz 12/03/2018 11:34 PM
So what I'm getting from this is that, in a simple sense, muonation would effectively reduce the number of valence electrons.
23:34
If you add one muon to a noble gas, for instance, it would behave like a halogen.
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So if a partially muonated helium would form two bonds, it would have 1sm2 and 1se2 molecule orbitals... but only two protons in its core.
23:35
That molecule orbital is at least seriously polarized if not unstable.
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0111narwhalz 12/03/2018 11:35 PM
Would the electron bonds be short enough for muon bonds to form?
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Yeah, I get that. (I did take chemistry πŸ˜ƒ ) But looking at first at just the one atom of hybrid helium, right, we've got two protons in the nucleus, one muon in the 1sm, and one electron in the 1se. If what I've been told is correct, that behaves like hydrogen - so we get a hHe2 molecule in which there are two electrons in the 1se2, and the 1sm orbitals don't get close enough to participate in the bonding.
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Ah okay, you refer to only the electron orbital...
23:36
It be hella polarized.
23:36
But may just work out.
23:36
Urgh, really what you have to do is plug this all into some orbital formulas and calculate.
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Yep. Sadly, that's the point at which it starts breaking my brain. :( Which is a shame, because depending on how the numbers work out, there could be all sorts of fascinating applications for this stuff that you can't do with pure muon matter.
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0111narwhalz 12/03/2018 11:39 PM
I get that muon matter gives you stronger bonds, and more dense bulk matter, and therefore greater mechanical strength, but what does hybrid matter get you except denser versions of electronic matter?
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(The most obvious and the I'm-almost-certain-doesn't-work one would be finding a way to build exotic matter that could form bonds with both electronic matter and muon matter, at which point you have struck gold.)
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0111narwhalz 12/03/2018 11:39 PM
And, I suppose interface layers between muon and electron matter.
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Yeah @Overmind but Iβ€˜m sceptical that actually works out well.
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@0111narwhalz The trouble is that muon matter and electron matter don't interact, because while muons Pauli exclude muons and electrons electrons, they don't exclude each other.
πŸ“Œ 1
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Molecular bond geometry is rules by Valenz electron pair repulsion.
23:41
And a muon pair canβ€˜t "stand its ground" in such a state because it's "too shy".
23:42
Any muon orbital would be tiny compared to an electron orbital, so itβ€˜s going to get "squeezed" by the electron orbitals.
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So in the 'verse, for example, muon metal makes great blade shields and magnetic nozzle structures for torch drives because it's ludicrously refractory and can stand the heat, but you have to attach it to the rest of the drive with a magnetic couple, because it will pass through normal matter as if it wasn't there. Which also makes it useless for, say, armor. You could stick a giant wake shield of super-strong, super-dense muon iron on the front of your lighthugger and it would be completely useless, since the space-junk you want to armor against will just fly right through it.
πŸ“Œ 1
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Though actually - okay wait, you said Pauli exclusion prinziple doesnβ€˜t separate electrons and muons?
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Yep, per a conversation I had with Luke Campbell a while back, muons and electrons don't exclude each other. Hence, muons and electrons not sharing the same orbitals, and so forth.
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Because if so, okay forget the main part about VSEPR, that one is heavily Pauli exclusion prinziple.
23:45
A bit better news then. Charge disparity is still an issue.
23:47
Iβ€˜d suggest something like hybrid-muonized... Berylium.
23:47
Or really, any element of the second group.
23:47
Probably the heavier the better.
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Yeah. Given how hugely the exclusion principle's involved in building the orbital structure that chemistry relies on, it sounded at least somewhat possible that you could get two entirely separate sets of bonding going on. So you've got -- I'm gonna stick with hHe for now, because it's simple, but imagine a molecule that goes eH-hHe-mH . The hHe atom has its two protons in the nucleus, shares an electron with the eH in the 1se2, and shares a muon with the mH in the 1sm2. Hm.
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The big problem I canβ€˜t quite crack yet is the molecule polarity.
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...so the 1se2 has two electrons, and there's a matching proton at either end of that bond, and the 1sm2 has two muons, and there's a matching proton at either end of that bond. So far, that feels like it ought to be workable, and yet, y'know?
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Yeah well, the problemβ€˜s the damn overcharge of the bonds.
23:51
At least, with helium.
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0111narwhalz 12/03/2018 11:51 PM
Ah, I see the problem.
23:52
The helium will now have a shared muon and a shared electron.
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I think with Berylium it works out now.
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I'm not sure I'm getting it. Looking at it, the 1sm2 and 1se2 both are both sitting on -2, with a balancing +1 at each end. That looks no more unbalanced to me that, say, a regular H-H bond which is also -2 with 2 x +1.
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Aaaand actually no it doesnβ€˜t. Berylium is 2s2. This would be 1se1, 1sm1.
23:53
In a molecular bond then, 2se2, 2sm2.
23:55
Though... okay yeah, it works. This is similiar to a bond where other partners donate their electron pairs to Berylium.
23:55
It wonβ€˜t be the most stable per se....
23:56
Muonated oxygen seems ideal. Two charges to noble gas configuration.
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Yeah. It's sort of sitting for me in that awkward realm of "seems plausible, but I want a pro glance over it before I use it in canon".
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Actually ah okay no no no now I have it figured out how to approach this.
23:58
First, decide how many electron bonds you want.
23:58
Based on that, select from the right side to the left, your element.
23:58
Then you replace some of the valenz electrons with valenz muons.
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I mean, if it's possible to do this, you've got something you can use to solder muon matter to regular matter, at which point the Potential Applications all come rushing back in, winking at you and demanding you rush to the patent office.
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0111narwhalz 12/03/2018 11:59 PM
noone expects the Spanish Potential Applications
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Banjo cord riff
00:01
Carbon still seems ideal as solder. Itβ€˜s got a nice SP hybrid orbital.
00:01
Very easy to steal two electrons, replace them with muons.
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Morgrim Moon 12/04/2018 12:02 AM
Yeah, I'm starting to think final crystal shape will dictate stability in a big way
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0111narwhalz 12/04/2018 12:02 AM
and the carbon supremacy gains another application
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Carbon is fun stuff.
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0111narwhalz 12/04/2018 12:03 AM
(one begins to wonder why the universe even bothered implementing other elements at this point)
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Morgrim Moon 12/04/2018 12:03 AM
Because if you're effectively doubling your shells once bonding to neighbours is complete, that's a hell of a strain on the protons
00:03
"polarised" might be an understatement. "do not approach without rubber underwear" is a likely outcome
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0111narwhalz 12/04/2018 12:04 AM
*muonated rubber underwear
00:04
:V
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Morgrim Moon 12/04/2018 12:04 AM
Nah, we're talking pure charge balance, any old insulation will do
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Heh.
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0111narwhalz 12/04/2018 12:05 AM
ooh I bet muonated dielectrics would make hellishly efficient capacitors
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Morgrim Moon 12/04/2018 12:05 AM
Could stop it being a run away setting changer, though, if it can cause aurora cruising at car speeds thru atmo
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Muonated explosives.
00:06
For that exotic chemical bang, accept no substitutes.
00:06
And yeah @Morgrim Moon Thatβ€˜s why I suggest SP-hybridized moleculed like carbon.
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Morgrim Moon 12/04/2018 12:07 AM
I'm not sure shaped charges would be easy tho
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Now if you want high-energy-density storage applications with potential explosive uses, I'm playing around with one that might just fit the bill. Nowhere near ready for serious #technicalities, though.
00:08
How do you one-up a nuclear isomer battery?
πŸ“Œ 1
00:08
A baryon isomer battery.
πŸ“Œ 1
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0111narwhalz 12/04/2018 12:09 AM
[concerns]
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Because nothing says Inadvisably Applied Femtotechnology than storing energy in overstressed quark-quark bonds.
πŸ“Œ 1
00:19
But belike, I can still try to querry my professors in physical chemistry, @Overmind. I suspect they know a lot more than any of us here to quantify how muons influence the entire problem. As I said, itβ€˜ll just take some time (and I mostly have thermochemistry with them, so Iβ€˜ll need to do some digging at whomβ€˜s best asked about orbitals.)
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@Unknown I'd appreciate it, if you wouldn't mind. And no particular hurry so far as I'm concerned - I'd just like to know.
00:21
Thanks muchly.
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I have some concern on how thats even supposed to work. Seems like you might aswell apply the anti-decay magic of muonic matter on tetra or pentaquarks. Or mesons. (edited)
14:36
Or maybe you've found an efficient way of using the zeno effect to manipulate the decay of unstable quantum systems.
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Doing without is somewhat problematic, protons and neutrons seem a bit useless, as they are fairly stable. And higher level hadrons decay into smaller pieces. What about mesons then? Well, as a rule of thumb for hadrons to exist they need to be color neutral. How do you get for example white by mixing either red with blue or green? Easy! Use anti-red. And by the virtue of having an anti-quark in your meson you get something rather unstanble with decay times ranging from 1e-21 seconds to 1e-8 seconds.
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Question: How do the muons not decay in muonic matter?
08:44
Another magic use for muonic matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muon-catalyzed_fusion
Muon-catalyzed fusion (ΞΌCF) is a process allowing nuclear fusion to take place at temperatures significantly lower than the temperatures required for thermonuclear fusion, even at room temperature or lower. It is one of the few known ways of catalyzing nuclear fusion reactio...
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@KAL_9000 Applied Magicβ„’
09:09
Eldrae muon metals are actively ontologically stabilized exotic matter with other words.
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Hey, I have a stupid awesome idea: Muon metal radiators.
14:06
The pecular orbital properties of muons seems rather disposed to building some really hot-running solid-phase radiator arrays.
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OK, then, my issues with the armor (based on https://eldraeverse.com/2015/02/11/the-emperors-sword-heavy-cavalry/ and previous discussions: 1) the drivetrain. It's basically balls of concentrated nanomemes, so it's not like there's any huge issues left open beyond the general issues I have with nanomemes. 2) There's no effort being put into signature reduction. I'm of the opinion that every little bit of that counts, and while going all the way might not be worth the money, going most of the way still makes deception a lot easier 3) Your crew should be wearing helmets in the tank, and I get the impression they don't. The Royal Army of WWII was the only one whose armor branch didn't, and they took more than twice the casualties (injured) than others. Not because the helmets helped so much when the armor is penetrated, but because soldiers kept banging their heads when on rough terrain
07:40
4) Armament. This is where I have the biggest/the most issues: 4.1) Ortillery (god I hate that word) designation should be integrated into the commanders sight - having them on the turret cheeks restricts their arc, and the commander is going to be the one designating 4.2) The tons of micromissile launchers/slugguns spreado ut over the surface. They appear to be fixed in elevation and traverse, or at least rather limited, which makes their utility about as high as the fixed hull machine guns of yore (it is perhaps telling that noone has them anymore) 4.3) Armored prow. This makes me think of the pike nose of the IS series, because the frontal edge of a tank is already sturdy enough that driing into a house isn't a big problem. Also, it adds a lot of weight when you want to ge the same protection as with a flat front 4.4) your choice of RWS: based on a previous discussion, your system of choice is an automatic greande launcher, launching either AHEAD munitions or the old style of shrapnel shells with a small charge pushing balls (flechettes for you) out the front. This is especially confusing as you already have perfectly good autocannons and lasers on your tank that are part of the APS - they can be used for this too I got more but I already needed to split this. Please stand by
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5) the jump system. To me, this is just not useful at all - you have no control over the tank when it's in the air, its a massive load on the reactor, landing is a massive shock on the structure and the crew. It would be in my opinion faar wiser to have the tank wait for a pioneer troop when it reaches an obstacle it trulyl cannot cross instead of building this into every tank 6) we're on the modules, which means more armament choices: 6.1) apparently, your standard tank comes with quadbarrel (gatling?) machine guns, which are also in their own turrets. These extra turrets have the tendency of complicating the construction of a tank while being poorly armored or massively increasing weight, while also potentially blocking the traverse or elevation of the main gun. The Basher apparently swaps this out for a single quadbarrel, but in my opinion all tanks should carry a single barrel machine gun or light autocannon in a coaxial mount 6.2) I can't believe I missed the rear-mounted medium caliber guns. Which are also apparently cheeck-mounted (the turret cheeks are commonly understood to be the two usually angled faces to the side of the mantlet, while this implies you are referring to the flank of the turret)
07:48
OK done
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Okay. I'll get started, then, and I'm gonna take it one by one just so we don't end up with a dozen different threads tripping over each other: On the drivetrain: well, it's not like they're balls of nanites; it's just a shape-changing smart material, based on an extrapolation of some smart materials we already have. It's also a variation on what is, at that time, a common civilian drivetrain for ground vehicles.
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Smart materials, nanomemes, the point is the same: I think you're applying fancy tech because you want fancy tech. But it's commonly used fancy tech, so eh
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It pretty much boils down to the fancy tech of today being the boring baseline of tomorrow, yeah.
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I'm off for lunch, be back in 30 or so returned (edited)
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Righto. Then I shall carry on through and we can one-by-one it then.
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Signature reduction: this cuts right to some of the assumptions I'm making regarding the battlefields of the time, right up the top of the list of which is that pretty much any heavy unit has the sort of signature that you can't baffle worth a damn: you're dumping a ton of heat, for a start, your power systems can probably be picked up on neutrino detectors., and firing a weapon puts out a big, recognizable EM pulse. As for visible/audible stealth, it's pretty much a giant rolling bunker. (This is where I had something of an argument with myself about nomenclature, because they are that to much more of an extent than 21st century tanks are, because an awful lot of their role is subsumed by the guys in the heavy armor suits. So it might have been better not to have called them tanks, but evolution of nomenclature, so. Ergh.) Now, saying this, I don't mean to say that there's not effort put into confusing the signature as much as they can versus terminal guidance of incoming weapons, or that it's a complete waste of time trying to masquerade as something else, if there's a plausible option available. Just that - like the space-warfare equivalent - it can't pretend to not be there with any kind of effectiveness, not without stripping off all manner of capabilities. And by the time you do that sufficiently, you'd probably have been better off building a dedicated stealth platform in the first place. I haven't canonicalized this yet, so I may well rethink this if I come up or someone suggests a good means of signature-baffling this sort of unit, but as of now, I haven't got one.
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Morgrim Moon 12/12/2018 8:18 AM
So basically "there's no way we can do stealth, so let's do shock and awe instead"?
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See, to me as well as the rest of the ToughSF armchair general crowd, Maskirovka and other deception counts as stealth, while you seem to count it separately
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Pretty much. Or "we can't find a practical way to stealth our (gross) position, so we're just going to have to build something that can stand there and take it".
08:24
Well, even that can be difficult. I think I said somewhere on a discussion on recon starships that their main tactic is to make a high-speed pass through a system on a course that can't be successfully intercepted on time, because it's really hard to make a recon destroyer look like anything but a recon destroyer. You can do the whole pack-sensors-into-a-merchie-hull trick, Russian spy trawler style, but you can't do that with the full top-line sensor array you can put on the recon ship.
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Clearly you are insufficiently Russian
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What I'm really trying to say, I suppose, is that their maskirovka is going to take the form of assorted external cleverness rather than technical support from the platform, 'cause there isn't much of the latter to help with it. Not denying the value, just the implementation possibilities.
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Whatever platform it is, some thermal netting will probably help you a lot
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Morgrim Moon 12/12/2018 8:29 AM
at those outputs? Not really
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It'll help with obscuring the signature details, sure, but at the sort of power levels the reactors in these things are designed to put out, that's just taking you from big sharp blob on IR to big fuzzy blob.
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Yes, and you can make another big fuzzy blob elsewhere with some off-the-shelf generator
08:32
Now your enemy might attack that instead of your tank
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Morgrim Moon 12/12/2018 8:33 AM
that's only effective if the off the shelf generator (and getting it there) is at least an order of magnitude cheaper than the tank. Otherwise it's far more effective to just get a second tank
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Given all the other stuff that's in the tank, I would imagine a reactor of similar power is significantly cheaper
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Yeah, that's true. When I write the results of this up for a post, I'll try and make it clear that that sort of thing is not something I meant to exclude; only technical capabilities of the platform itself.
08:35
You certainly can use decoys and other such techniques. I did not mean to imply that that was off the table.
08:42
So. 3. I may have given the wrong impression with that "shirt-sleeve environment". To clarify, that and related comments cover two things: One, the crews don't need to sit around in the same hardshell armor the regular troops wear, because anything that can penetrate the crew compartment will kill you anyway, so you might as well stick to regular field uniform; and Two, it's rather more comfortable than "tank" suggests to most readers, in terms of both spaciousness and having a firmer division between crew compartment and machinery space. Some of that is tech change; the rest is that the people who built it like their comforts and don't mind blowing some budget on that. But, sure, while I hadn't thought of that particular requirement for them, helmets are in.
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Just pointing out that fixed micro-missle launchers shouldn't be a problem. Not when they can arc around where they need to go.
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(Oh, and, to clarify, it also helps that by and large the crew are not expected to need to leave, or even stick their heads out of, the vehicle unless something has gone Very Wrong with the Plan. Especially since in many cases, they can't breathe out there , and may not even be able to survive without a hefty exosuit anyway.)
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That makes sense, though being able to stick your head out is an important ability at times - with tacnukes being thrown around, you are going to be losing cameras and periscopes
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True, but if you are throwing tacnukes around your head won't last long enough for your eyes to even adjust to the light
08:50
(also helps when you have tightbeams to all the drone escorts that are your extended eyes, plus all the other parts of your group)
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I'm going to say that it's likely possible, but it's what you resort to after you exhaust the possibilities of high redundancy, the autorepair systems, and borrowing someone else's eyeballs over the tactical mesh. Although if you've come up negative on all of those, the situation has gone so far south that it probably won't help you much.
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Morgrim Moon 12/12/2018 8:52 AM
Admittedly now I'm imagining the crew of that One Tank who discovers the local equivalent of a well disguised sucking bog or tar trap, and getting out of the tank is something that happens after the fight when everyone is standing around trying to figure out how to extract them (and laugh)
πŸ˜„ 2
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oh, they are going to have hell when they get back to barracks
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I mean in some enviroments that can be solved with a breathing mask, but there are tohers were you would need a full suit
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Armaments: I may have been a little misleading with "cheek-mounted", because there I'm talking about the base platform; i.e., before you put a module (which bears the turret) in it. In this case, what I'm meaning is mounted on the slightly-angled side faces at front and back of the main body. I also wasn't clear about the mountings, for which I apologize: they're mounted via something akin to a semi-recessed ball turret, so the intent is that they can traverse and elevate until they run into physical constraints: which is to say, the front cheeks can hit target anything from front to flank-and-rear, just not behind the vehicle, and the rear cheeks can target anything from rear to flank-and-front, just not directly in front of the vehicle.
08:59
...altazimuth mount! That's the word I was searching for.
09:01
So for the "rear-facing" guns, what I meant to imply is that that's where they're mounted, and that's their default "rest position", but they certainly aren't intended to fire only at targets behind you. It just doesn't hurt to have the capability when you're adding more flank-guarding weapons.
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I mean, that's slightly better than what I was imagining, but they're still rear-facing weapons in a tank
09:04
There's a tank with direct line of sight on either side of you, if not more, as well as other vehicles and infantry. Targets being behind you to such a degree that it makes dedicated rear guns worthwhile over just turning the turret or the RWS is a major fuckup
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To answer that, I'm going to have to a bit about the whole combat environment and how it differs from today's. Give me a minute or two to gather my thoughts.
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Okay. So. There are two main relevant characteristics here, I think. One is dispersal, and the other one is porosity. On the former, you're spread out across a lot of space because concentrations of force make the guys with the orbital artillery have warm fuzzy thoughts, followed by hot shooty thoughts. Your neighboring tank in the formation may not be actually over the horizon, but they're probably most of the way there. Near you, you have a bunch of combat drones slaved to your tank, and some heavy infantry (the guys in the power suits). Which all do help a lot with local defense, but -- On the latter, your line is more of a zone, and it's porous as hell, because we're up to n-th generation drone warfare at this point, and you've got everything from carbon-eater swarms to whole packs of micro-AKVs zipping around at high speed, opposed by your own equivalents of these. If you're unlucky, the other side's infowar guys have suborned a bunch of people's kitchen fabbers and household automation behind you and have them churning out improvised suicide weapons with all their mechanical hearts. You might have automated stealth platforms left in concealment popping up after you pass, and so forth.
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Also the Imperial doctrine of ground warfare as raiding isn't really condusive to having a solid wall for a front line
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So you really can't count on, even if everything goes well, being clear to the rear, short of retreating your way through the whole battle. Somethings are going to get back there on a fairly regular basis.
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For the spreading out: while your nukes are higher yield, current day armor formations are formed around the Cold War and thus were adequately spaced for those tacnukes. Yours are stronger, but your tanks are also stronger. The porous frontline goes back even further, it was existant in the first World War and the maneuver oriented warfare afterwards pushed it even higher. There were a whole bunch of theories with nice names about how ot organize in an age where combat goes deeper than the first few rows of an infantry block, the most significant being the Deep Battle of the USSR
09:33
So, you cannot count on being clear - but the best way to deal with enemies in the back is not to put in a bunch of large, heavy guns with all their ammo, it's to swing the turret around (if it's vehicles) or the RWS if it's just a bunch of dudes
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it's more a question of "do we have secondary turrets at all?". If you don't have those, yes of course you are swinging around the main
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Yeah, it's not so much a solid wall as a fifty-to-hundred mile-wide zone at the back end of which, statistically, everyone on the other side ought to be dead. (edited)
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but if not then if some of those secondaries cover the rear that is a nice bonus
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Secondary turrets are a huge mess and generally not worth it for carrying guns
09:35
Though technically the RWS is a turret too - it replaces the commanders MG with a remote controlled one so he can stay down
09:36
The Israelis also managed to integrate a 60mm mortar into the Merkava rather well
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Well, they're not heavy guns. The rear mounts are lighter fittings (I said "medium mass driver", but that's a light gun by vehicular standards) which, really, you might categorize as similar in role to the RWS. They're to give you something to pop the drone lining up to shoot you in the ass with so you don't have to stop engaging your main target while you do it.
09:41
In this scenario, battlefield micro-AKVs are cheap and plentiful, so this happens a lot. If you had to slew the main gun around every time, you'd be taking your eye off the ball way too much - even, it occurs to me, if you get it to reliably track something that small and fast-moving.
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which also explains why guns are used instead of the missles: good way to run your missles dry and lose the economic side of the battle
09:42
(given drones this cheap)
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A medium gun is something I place into a different realm than an RWS -a medium gun is something in the 50mm to 90mm range for current day, an RWS would be between GPMG and 30mm autocannon
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(Also to help keep the drones off the accompanying infantry, whose point defense is more limited by virtue of, well, not being a tank.)
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Can you not give this job over to an IFV or a BPMT equivalent?
09:45
It would be able to bring its guns ot bear all-around, making them vastly more useful than fixed rear-mounted guns
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those are the tanks with the PD modules (unless I'm scrambling memories)
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In this case, we're probably talking 36 mm APSC or APEX spikes, at velocities which [Pay No Attention To The Mathematical Error Behind The Curtain].
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I see fixed rear guns as a massive cost on internal volume, weight, money and crew attention when you already got your main gun, your RWS with an autocannon or AGL, rear APS lasers and IFVs to take care of these threats - if you still frequently find yourself with lots of enemies in your back, then either move slower to get them on the fist round, or slower so they cannot get you
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@Ian Bruene Don't think there's a dedicated PD version. @Unknown Hmm. Let me think about that one. Although these ones do have something like a 160 degree traverse each, which might be stretching "fixed" just a bit.
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Below 180° is fixed for me
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Fair enough. And, yeah, you've got some good points there. I'm not necessarily going to go all-in with them, but I'm going to take a a couple of days, mull it over, and definitely make some revisions.
09:56
(Regarding crew attention: that at least isn't too much of a problem. There's a lot of automation stuffed into... well, everything, for assorted cultural reasons, which carries over to the military equipment. Its ability to solve problems once designated and even DWIM is very good indeed.)
09:59
Okay, moving on: Armored prow. Toss the whole phrase on account of being misleading. All it's supposed to indicate is that as a big freakin' armored vehicle, it was assumed that it would have to spend a lot of time driving through things, not around them, and was designed with that assumption in mind.
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RWS and the "backscratcher": It's not supposed to be the main RWS or even close to it: it's intended as a last-ditch system for when a relatively soft target gets inside the effective envelope of both the weapons and APS. (The "there are monkeys climbing on my hull!" problem.) So they give you a quick way to throw some shrapnel at yourself and wash 'em off. I'm increasingly inclined to toss it as too specialized and unlikely to be necessary under most circumstances, but it might be useful as a bolt-on option for urban warfare against people likely to try and pop out at close range and stick explosives on you.
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Maybe just note that the tankβ€˜s bow is designed with ramming through things?
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If that's it's use case, I would toss it in favor of having the nearest available vehicle throw some proximity fuzed shrapnel on you
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Also, to be honest, the Backscratter should really be rather unrequired between all the drones, the point-defense network, and the tanks kinetic barrier system.
10:10
Jumping on a vehicle equipped with combat vectorics designed to deflect hypersonic kinetic-kill sabots out of the way sounds like the epidome of "yeah I didnβ€˜t think this through"
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Yeah, I think I'm coming to agree with y'all there.
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If nothing else...
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@Unknown Hey, I talked about making revisions right up there, look.
πŸ’― 2
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Hmmm, really a anti-tank missile PD network designed to work in urban conditions will have no issue with suicide sophonts.
10:12
Theyβ€˜re just too slow compared to everything else the network has to content with.
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The trouble is with squishies that get inside your inner engagement envelope. But anyway.
10:14
Jump system: Well, it's going to have to exist, because the supreme usefulness of the thing is in low-gravity environments, when you need something to keep you against the ground in order to get useful traction, and for that matter really low gravity environments, where you're fighting on a Ceres-like dwarf planet and would prefer that firing the main gun didn't send you floating off into orbit.
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...Doesnβ€˜t that pose issues of remass storage?
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Yes.
10:15
Use carefully and with discretion. Protect your remass-replenishment drones.
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Maybe use spider tanks instead? Low-gravity conditions is where I like spider tanks.
10:15
Because they can jump and anchor themselves against the ground and such stuff.
10:16
Also just for the "Tankers! On the bounce!".
10:16
Tachikoma jumping noises
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That is actually something I've had in mind for spider tanks in the canon, but y'know, army you have, army you want, etc.
10:18
But it shall be considered and possibly reconsidered. As for its other uses... on reflection, I suspect the easiest way to deal with obstacles you might consider skimming over is just to level the freakin' obstacle. That's why the good gods gave us explosives, after all.
πŸ‘ 4
10:20
And on those occasions where you want to airdrop your tanks, you can always stick a disposable drop-frame on them.
10:25
Quadbarrels, tribarrels, etc.: Not exactly gatling in the strictest sense, but the same principle and intent. The biggest constraint on firing rate of their coilguns is how quickly you can sink the heat generated (slightly beating out accumulator recharge time and switching minimums); so for a n-barrel, you're just strapping n of them together such that one barrel fires while the other three flash-cool and recharge, and repeat. (edited)
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The issue with that is that you get massively diminishing returns on fire rate - shooting modern day infantry from ground, you don't really need more than 600RPM, and often fire bursts to get the fire rate even lower make the ammunition last long. A tank might carry a ton of ammunition (possibly literally), but it's expected that in long battles, it will fire the machine guns a lot
10:30
The case for higher rate of fire weapons than that is mostly for when your time on target gets lower- if, in a plane, you only get less than a second of your gun being on target, that second has to count and you want to put as much mass downrange as you can
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You get some of those issues with the micro-AKVs. Part of the reason I'm looking at high fire rates as useful is the PD/APS that pretty much everything on the battlefield, down to individual light infantrymen, is equipped with. There's been an in-'verse arms race between smarter/faster PD systems and guns that can deliver enough downrange to overwhelm them.
10:36
Ammunition is not so much of a problem, because the standard (which is to say, whatever I don't call a sluggun) gun is firing small projectiles at high speeds, a la Mass Effect , so it lasts pretty well. ((And yes, I know why they won't work in actuality πŸ˜ƒ - I screwed up my calculations the same way the Bioware writers did, but since that is published canon now, I'm kinda stuck with it. Please pay no attention to the frantic handwaving behind the curtain.)) (edited)
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Ah yes, the good old super-high velocity micro-bullet
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Handcrafted from pure credulium.
10:39
But, yeah, this is a case where I'd rather 'fess up in the FAQ and be kinda vague about exactly how small and fast they are than inflict an ugly retcon on everyone.
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Dart gun might be fitting, if its anywhere above 3 km/s you are better off with an longer and thinner shape (edited)
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So, turrets. What I should also have been more clear about is that those should really just be called "weapon mounts", because we expect turrets on tanks to house the crew. Since they don't need people to service the weapons, the IL of this period prefer to bury the crew compartment inside the hull, and put a much smaller turret(s) on top to house the weapon mechanisms only.
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I expected that, it's been the Not New Thing in sci-fi tanks since the Armata
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Yeah, it's fairly common.
10:47
Since I am reconsidering anyway, how do we feel about stacking mounts?
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Quite often a terrible idea, but sometimes it works out
10:49
The RWS for example is on top of the turret, the Patton also had a turret on top of the turret
10:49
But the second turret was always a very light weapon compared to the main gun
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Compared to a heavy mass driver (72 mm spikes and/or micromissiles), I figure the quadbarrel qualifies in that category.
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It's on the upper end, but it doesn't send me cringing like some of the derpnoughts
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Yeah. I'll fiddle with that while I'm reconsidering, too.
10:56
Anyway: thanks for that. I appreciate the food for thought.
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Also, for all your fixed missile launchers: consider reloadable pop-up launchers in the turret
10:57
Some IFVs got those now for ATGM
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Will do.
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For the small projectile-high speed: at relativistic speeds, it won’t matter.
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Small thing, go fast enough, feel like big thing.
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stepping away from weapons, what sort of data throughput is actually going through the wormhole network and what does it take to perform a denial of service ?
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It varies widely between worlds, but an average populated planet’s contributing about an exabyte a day to the β€˜weave. Internal traffic’s a lot bigger thanks to all the layered caching, and most of the IoT traffic only needs to be local.
πŸ“Œ 1
00:22
Denial of service? Bring a interplanetary-sized botnet to the party?
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Would you classify that as "requires a nation-state level effort" or is it something for a well written virus and a few months of prep time by organized crime? (edited)
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To DoS the backbone? You’re going to want some serious Power, Vinge-style, backing you up, β€˜cause that’s what’s doing the virus scanning.
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You know, I'm not entirely clear on what the Transcend actually does on a day- to- day basis.
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It’s probably possible for a powerful nation-state to have a go, but it’s attracting the attention of a lot of people who will deliver some serious hurt.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:30 AM
Seems like it'd attract the same kind of ire as big R-bombs.
00:30
Considering that it's a threat to everyone connected to the wormhole network
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[nature of the Transcend] @xandeross Well, it’s everyone. In the sense of - if you’ve read A Miracle of Science , you know Mars? That. (edited)
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00:32
It’s got a whole lot of minds and subminds and so forth within it, but that’s the essence of the thing. As for its main job: it’s the impossible circle-squarer that lets you have perfect liberty and perfect coordination at the same time.
πŸ“Œ 1
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MarcusAurelius 12/18/2018 12:33 AM
I like to think of it as a more productive version of someone’s overly nosey grandma
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But it's got a lot of parts. Unification, for example, is the archai whose entire business is mediating between sophonts. It's the giant oversoul that whispers quiet suggestions and orchestrates chance happenings and generally fiddles behind the scenes to ensure that irreconcilable conflicts are avoided and good things always happen, with a side order of making the pathetic fallacy true and pronoia a perfectly accurate assessment of how the universe works.
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00:41
But then you get all the other parts, like the Geosynergic Minds, which exist to manage geophysics, meteorology and ecology to keep things globally optimal, rather than locally optimal; you've got the Immunities, which are exactly what it says on the tin; you've got Transfinity, the Teleic Mind, which is working on the very long-term problem of turning the Transcend's imperatives into hard-coded natural law and thereby desucking the universe, and so on and so forth.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:47 AM
Is the Transcend basically the country’s subconscious
00:47
Except given an actual slightly tangible form
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MarcusAurelius 12/18/2018 12:47 AM
Don’t forget they built their gods, too
00:48
Because they got tired of the waiting time when praying and installed a hardline connection (edited)
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More like their superego.
00:50
Literarily, of course, openly intending to rewrite the universe and usurp God usually makes you a villain. Here, it makes you the hero. (edited)
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:50 AM
What if your universe-rewriting goal is Wrong?
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:50 AM
C o l l e c t i v e, though? As in everyone who has enough contact? All who are born in Imperial space?
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Oops?
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Everyone who has a specific hard-ware bit installed in thier brain?
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But on the other hand, it's kind of hard to fail harder than the present incumbent, if any. Or so they would be inclined to say.
00:52
Everyone who is running the soul-shard software as part of their mind.
πŸ“Œ 1
00:53
(And can connect to the network reasonably often, I suppose.)
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Anyone saying it would be harder to fail more is an idiot. Accidentally nudge one of the levers setting the universal constants and all the matter in the universe explodes and everyone dies.
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Well, okay, it would be harder to fail more without being an idiot.
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God's trying the best he can, don't be mean to him. Do you know how hard it is to get a stable universe up and running at all? I don't but I bet it's super difficult.
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On the other hand, if there is anyone in charge of the universe, they're the sort of mentality that thinks entropy, death, and the ichneumon wasp are all Really Good Ideas. (edited)
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:56 AM
I assume that's one of the parasitic wasps?
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Yep.
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MarcusAurelius 12/18/2018 12:57 AM
Eh, there’s always the standard abrahamic argument of β€œits all part of God’s plan”
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:58 AM
"ill means spoil all good ends," no?
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They thought of that argument, and immediately dismissed it with "Well, then, who let this asshole make the plan? Fuck the plan!"
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Have you heard the "Gods Garden" arguement for theodicy?
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Morgrim Moon 12/18/2018 12:59 AM
Entropy kinda strikes me as "oh fuck it I can't seem to get rid of this remainder and I'm sick of rewriting this equation" more than a desired result
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The one Scott Alexander made?
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There's a quotation from one of the Discworld books:
01:00
β€œI have told this to few people, gentlemen, and I suspect never will again, but one day when I was a young boy on holiday in Uberwald I was walking along the bank of a stream when I saw a mother otter with her cubs. A very endearing sight, I’m sure you will agree, and even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued and dragged on to a half-submerged log. β€œAs she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy. One of nature’s wonders, gentlemen: mother and children dining upon mother and children. β€œAnd that’s when I first learned about evil. It is built into the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior.”
πŸ“Œ 1
01:01
As I said a couple of years back, this, of course, is peculiarly applicable to the Eldraeverse in explaining both their identification of entropy and evil, and in quite why so many people and organizations in the Empire are quite so comfortable β€œplaying God”. Someone has to, they might very well say, on the grounds that if anyone does hold that post already, the prevalence of this sort of thing in the universe demonstrates clearly – even before we bring up minor issues like the inescapable cosmic force of decay, belike – that the present incumbent is incompetent, insane, or quite simply monstrous.
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01:03
Their version of the problem of evil isn't "how do we justify this, assuming an omnibenevolent god", it's "Since evil exists, how do we kill it? (Note: not just the individual instances, but the entire class that defines them.)" (edited)
πŸ“Œ 1
10:35
Magic Muon Matterβ„’ is matter where the electrons have been replaced with muons, right?
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With artificially stabilized muons, yeah.
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Question 1) How do you stop the muons from decaying? Ontotech?
10:36
Question 2) How do you avoid the problem of spontaneous muon-catalyzed fusion?
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1. Space magic, yes. 2. By not using elements likely to undergo spontaneous muon-catalyzed fusion in the environments in which they're going to be used. Muonic deuterium is... problematic at room temperature. Heavier elements, less so, because your valence muons aren't sitting in the innermost orbital.
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Okay. I still don't understand, but sure.
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Do the Eldræ use muon-catalyzed fusion for power generation in some cases?
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Side note: there's a rather nasty failure mode of muonic-deuterium "warm fusion" reactors. If the EM containment fails on a regular fusion reactor, the plasma expands, hits the reactor vessel, and immediately quenches with the only casualty being the lining. If you're using muonic deuterium, since electrons and muons don't Pauli-exclude each other, the uncontained muonic plasma passes right through the reactor vessel as if it wasn't there, and the surrounding environment may regret it. (edited)
πŸ“Œ 1
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In other words, it basically becomes a hydrogen bomb
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OoOoF.
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It's been done experimentally, but the more conventional D/3He reactors were up and running nicely before practical muon-fu was a thing. There are probably people considering it as a way to get 4xH fusion over the ignition hump, but it's not a huge priority since no-one's running out of D/3He any time soon.
πŸ“Œ 1
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There are two "possibilities", the first is the zeno effect. For this you constantly observer a quantum state and collapse its waveform, therefore you can hinder the time evolution of that state and its decay. Two, an weakless universe or vacuum state where the weak force is massively weaker or doesn't exist at all.
πŸ“Œ 1
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Well, probably not as bad as a hydrogen bomb, since for the same reasons as it can pass through the containment, you're not going to have the same pressure-wave effects - or rather, they'll be spread out according to whatever the decay curve of artificially stabilized muons is - and we're not talking about prompt criticality anyway. On the other hand, the muonic plasma will be right there radiating heat. It's not going to take any longer to quench than a regular fusion plasma in a frigid "normal" environment for the usual reasons, but you still really don't want to be in the reactor room when it's happening.
πŸ“Œ 1
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No sir, you do not.
10:53
Or Ma'am.
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gentlesophont
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I guess you won't see pure passing through of the matter. In this case the electronic states don't do anything and we are left with a charge paired nucleus. Acting somewhat like a cold neutron ball. And predicitons for cold neutron molecules don't show perfect passing through matter.
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isn't gen-tle-so-phont a little long for, say, acknowledging something/someone?
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it's polite
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So, what I expect you would get is very similar to what happens if you blow a hole in the side of a regular fusion reactor: the air in the reactor room gets superheated, so you have a big ol' flashover that wrecks the immediate area and hopefully is contained by the nearest pressure bulkhead, leaving behind a lot of rusted mess.
πŸ“Œ 1
10:55
You can shorten to gentlesoph , right, sophs? πŸ˜ƒ
10:56
It is lunchtime for me on the US East Coast!
10:57
ponders cellular biology of the organisms that my sandwich once was
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MarcusAurelius 12/20/2018 10:57 AM
Eh, I’m with family, it’s hour 2 of post breakfast snack time
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Speaking of which, how does the whole green/blue/silverlife thing affect Eliéran biology at the cellular level, besides the whole weird blood color thing?
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When I talked to a physicist on muonic-electronic matter interactions previously, I understood that while there might be some nuclear interactions, a muonic BB dropped on a desk - for example - is going to fall right through, given the screening of the nuclear charge by muons over a short length scale. Of course, that was talking about solid-phase muon matter at low energies, so.
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I presume that greenlife cells in the Eldræ, for instance, are similar to Earthly animal cells, but beyond that, I've no clue
11:02
(Sorry for changing the subject, just going through my question list rn)
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Greenlife and bluelife are fairly close cousins (both DNA-based, using proteins, lipids, and sugars, although with a different coding and somewhat different set of amino acids), which is what made it possible to integrate them. And enough that heterotrophs and saprotrophs of each could mostly-consume the other, although they'd both be missing out on some essential nutrients if they tried to survive off it. (Although it was a ridiculously huge sign to eldraeic biochemists saying YOU ARE NOT A NATURAL SPECIES.)
πŸ“Œ 1
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Problem: Each type of cell uses completely different organelles
11:09
You can't really integrate that in a single organism
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Silverlife mostly does its own thing, because being evolved from Precursor nanites, it's not even close biologically to the others. Interactions there are limited to a few weird diseases like the silver plague, which is what happens when you're infected by nanites that start stripping the metals out of your blood and tissues.
πŸ“Œ 1
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I'm on a school bus going to a concert.
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#general
11:10
or #random
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MarcusAurelius 12/20/2018 11:10 AM
#random
πŸ‘† 1
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Oh. Right.
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If you're a Precursor race that's been manipulating biology for longer than most civilizations manage to exist, it's surprising what you can get away with. 😎
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I'm imagining the Eldræ biologists taking notes from their own DNA (edited)
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(I mean, the integration means rewriting both sides of the blend pretty damn hard to the point that the result isn't much more than "descended-from" any more, but that unlike-most-everything-else-ness is part of why it's such a giant NOT EVOLVED, OKAY? sign.)
11:16
Random notes: if we were ever to compare anatomies - well, there's that bit from Babylon 5 where it's lampshaded that despite looking like the Centauri, we're not actually related at all? In the 'verse, where it's generally a rule that anything that looks sufficiently like another species has to be related somehow, this would give exobiologists kittens.
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Why did the Precursors make the Eldræ, exactly?
11:18
Seems like a lot of trouble to make an entire sentient species with two different biologies in one
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Looking just at the gross internal differences: well, apart from the Precursors replacing our red cells with free-floating organic catalysts (taken from bluelife, because they were more efficient than hemoglobin), a quick MRI is going to point out the different bone and muscle structures (interwoven, and braided, respectively), the double-chambered stomach, the six-lobed liver, the peristaltic heart, and the whole paracardiac chain that doesn't even exist in humans.
πŸ“Œ 1
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paracardiac?
11:20
clarify plox
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It's a bunch of folded layers along the venae cavae responsible for blood filtration and housing a bunch of subsidiary glands and ganglia; most of which are part of the sort of enhanced immune and self-repair systems you need in order to, well, not die.
πŸ“Œ 1
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As for why - and leaving aside that it probably wasn't all that much trouble for the people who made a flat planet with tremendously intricate support systems for reasons which, if anyone knew them, amounted to "I want one" - ...
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Is the Eldræic brain pretty close to the human brain (just reprogrammed for the new body and with a lot of the irrationality removed?)
11:30
After all, the greenlife baseline was Homo sapiens
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...well, the common theory is that the Precursors in question (the trakelpanis trakóras amán ) on one hand were looking for servitors capable of managing highly complex industrial and other processes that they did not wish to concern themselves with for long periods of time. This would probably have bitten them right on the ass given time, but their civilization blew itself up shortly thereafter, leaving the unfinished proto-eldrae to make their own fate. The unknown and totally spoilery reason is (rot13 follows) --
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doesn't follow
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-- fbzr bs gur genxrycnavf genxóenf nzáa jrer gelvat gb znxr n fcrpvrf gung jnf fhssvpvragyl yvxr gurz gb zrnavatshyyl vaurevg gurve pvivyvmngvba, ohg juvpu ynpxrq gurve sngny synj, ivm., orvat fb jvyyshy gung gurl pbhyq oneryl fgnaq rnpu bgure naq graqrq gb trg vagb yrguny, qrfgehpgvir pbasyvpgf ng gur qebc bs n ung. Juvpu vf n znwbe ceboyrz jura lbh'er tvnag ernyvgl-jnecvat qentbaf jvgu fhcrerzcbjrevat grpuabybtl. N funzr gubfr graqrapvrf qrfgeblrq gurve pvivyvmngvba orsber gurl pbhyq svavfu nal bs gurve rkcrevzragf, ohg fb vg tbrf.
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I'm pretty sure that that was already mentioned in cleartext elsewhere.
11:45
Maybe in Friendship is Sufficiently Advanced, I think.
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Guvf vf tbvat gb or zhpu pyrnere va gur Nqinaprqirefr, vanfzhpu nf va Rdhhf gurl'ir sbhaq bar bs gur genxrycnavf genxóenf nzáa'f bgure rkcrevzragf. Gur ernfba gung jubyr frggvat ybbxf fhfcvpvbhfyl yvxr vg'f frg hc gb cebzbgr Unezbal naq vgf nffbpvngrq inyhrf vf gung gur Cerphefbef frg gung rkcrevzrag hc gung jnl, naq vg'f orra serr-ehaavat sbe 300,000 lrnef be fb.
11:47
I think I spoiler-warninged it there, too, but anyway. There it is.
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<I do not understand>
15:42
<does not compute>
15:42
<eldraeequivelanttodoesnotcompute>
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MarcusAurelius 12/20/2018 3:50 PM
Do you not get the cipher, or the deciphered message?
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No? Do you?
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It's securely encrypted with a stateless keyless cipher called 3rot13.
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MarcusAurelius 12/20/2018 3:55 PM
He said it’s rot13 in the message, it’s a simple Caesar cipher. There’s plenty of online translators (edited)
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https://rot13.com/ because 3rot13 is basically the same as rot13 but fancier-sounding.
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Okay, wasn't what I hoped for but still interesting.
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MarcusAurelius 12/20/2018 4:21 PM
It’s been posted in here before, though I think the body plan detail is new
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The encrypted message
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MarcusAurelius 12/21/2018 6:37 AM
What about it?
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Is it in Eldrae?
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MarcusAurelius 12/21/2018 1:30 PM
No, it’s just rot13. It’s a simple substitution cipher
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Enderminion 12/21/2018 1:53 PM
not secure in the slightest
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it is spoiler security, obfustication is sufficient
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MarcusAurelius 12/21/2018 1:53 PM
It’s meant for situations like these, where you want spoiler tags SB style but can only use plain text
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How would the current mass driver weapon fare against an unarmoured humanoid?
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Enderminion 12/21/2018 2:04 PM
over pen
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That's what I thought.
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MarcusAurelius 12/21/2018 2:05 PM
Same with a lot of high end AP rounds nowadays
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Depending on its geometry and velocity a lot of things could happen. But probably just overpenetration.
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@MarcusAurelius oof that universe must be a pain to live in
15:19
215k G acceleration is considered slow (edited)
15:19
Uranus-sized dreadnoughts
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MarcusAurelius 12/22/2018 3:23 PM
Nah, dreads top out at 170 km long (working out exact mass and proportions). Those things are battleworlds. Let me put it this way: the previous batch of interuniversal civilization managed to seed 60 trillion big bangs so precisely that they all developed almost identical universes. While fighting a losing war against a hegemonizing swarm
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oh eikones
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0111narwhalz 12/22/2018 3:24 PM
"dreadnought the size of your anus Uranus"
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MarcusAurelius 12/22/2018 3:25 PM
The dreadnoughts could remove Uranus relatively easily
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Enderminion 12/22/2018 3:26 PM
interesting, what about Jupiter?
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0111narwhalz 12/22/2018 3:26 PM
Are we talking "removal" by conventional or ontotech means?
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The largest maneuverable thing in my universe that's not a Shkadov Thruster or giant boosters strapped to a planet/moon is only 300km
15:27
The largest ship that started out as a ship, is what I mean
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0111narwhalz 12/22/2018 3:28 PM
Kerbae ad Astra's Union of Created Intelligences has some BHIR sessiles, but they're called "sessiles" for a reason.
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This being the Jaian Har'Tikdal, or "Emergency Ark"
15:29
BHIR?
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0111narwhalz 12/22/2018 3:29 PM
Black hole infall reactor
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0111narwhalz 12/22/2018 3:29 PM
i.e. baryon flipper
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The Har'Tikdal's job is thus: If galactic civilization falls, it will carry a complete copy of the knowledge of the Jaians and the genetic code/blueprints for as many organic/machine sophonts as possible out to Andromeda or somewhere to restart civilization.
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0111narwhalz 12/22/2018 3:30 PM
They're relatively small black holesβ€”they need to be, else they won't make net powerβ€”but that's "relatively small" for a black hole.
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A.K.A. several solar masses (edited)
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0111narwhalz 12/22/2018 3:31 PM
nah, not that high
15:31
I think Hawking radiation reaches net outwards somewhere around Lunar mass?
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Oh, not a natural black hole?
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0111narwhalz 12/22/2018 3:31 PM
pff, of course not
15:31
:V
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Any Penrose spheres around normal holes?
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0111narwhalz 12/22/2018 3:31 PM
This is the resident weakly godlike civ, remember?
15:32
Some, but I have to go AFK now :V
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okie
15:32
I GTG too, actually
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MarcusAurelius 12/22/2018 3:50 PM
Short answer: both. These things are big, low end guess is that their mass is 3.5 petatons (edited)
15:56
And their ontobays tend to be full of fun toys
15:58
Also, as to β€œuniverse”: Kéró proper has been in a state of large-scale war for most of its 60+ billion years of history, and it tends to bubble over to the many, many others within its sphere of influence
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Even a proton sized BH is rather low power.
16:11
Something in the gigawatts? My internet won't load. And your antimatter production is also somewhat dissapointing.
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MarcusAurelius 12/22/2018 4:13 PM
@KAL_9000 is the apostrophe for syllable demarcation or is it a phoneme?
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0111narwhalz 12/22/2018 6:06 PM
@Kerr There're however many black holes involved as are necessary.
18:09
BHIRs are interesting, because you have to scram them to shut them down, and to scram them you need a fairly large mass.
18:09
Like another black hole.
18:09
So full BHIR units are probably two- or three-hole units.
18:12
Wikipedia tells me that a black hole of 10⁡kg would have a radiative power of roughly 10²¹W.
18:13
You'd have to feed it its entire mass every second.
18:15
Gives you an upper bound of 5×10⁴ kg/s of antimatter, assuming perfect conversion.
18:16
The other 5×10⁴kg/s of regular matter can be recycled, of course.
18:16
If you need less power, you recycle more antimatter.
18:17
If you need more power, you turn down the feed rate until the hole gets small enough.
18:18
For safety reasons, you probably don't want to let the hole get too small, or else you'll have problems with feeding it fast enough to keep it in a steady state.
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An 100 t black hole is around 1e-22 m.
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Sudden sidethought: in Railguns, same force that accelerates projectile out pushes rails away. You can't have rails without structural elements to prevent deformation, break in current or whole rail ripping in two.
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Morgrim Moon 12/23/2018 6:15 PM
isn't that way railguns are currently a "one or two shots, 4 at most" weapon?
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0111narwhalz 12/23/2018 6:15 PM
No, they're that because of rail ablation.
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Morgrim Moon 12/23/2018 6:17 PM
ah, thanks
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0111narwhalz 12/23/2018 6:22 PM
As I understand it, for similar performance as conventional cannons, the stresses aren't that much more extreme.
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Morgrim Moon 12/23/2018 6:23 PM
I'm assuming you mean like big ship's guns for conventional cannons? Because actual cannons tend to need cycling after a surprisingly low number of shots too, or the barrels warp
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Enderminion 12/23/2018 9:26 PM
Navy Railguns are up to several hundred shots now
21:26
which is about the same as the Big Guns
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whats the species population distribution in the Empire of the Star? I notice a lot of comments seem to 'assume' everyone is an eldrae, since a lot of given nanofics don't happen to specify a species at any point.
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Gah. Can’t find my numbers right now.
17:12
[species pop distribution/how many eldrae] Okay, to toss out a proctonumerological approximation, you can assume that they’re maybe 30-35% of the population. Another 60% or so is made up of the other homeworld-included species and uplifts. The rest are immigrants from elsewhere. (edited)
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17:16
(The not-mentioning-species - although it is often determinable from the names - is of course deliberate. In a culture like theirs, people think of the individual first, the chosen-groups second, and the demographic third and last.)
πŸ“Œ 1
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AIs have to be a lot of that, right?
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Yeah, they're a big tranche.
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I am wondering what Eldrae think about the simulation hypothesis? Not so much in a philosophical sense, but rather in a scientific sense? Is there any consensus?
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The implications of it being unfalsifiable make the hypothesis a bit unattractive in their eyes. Albeit thinking about the implications what is ontotechnology it seems like there is some form of "substrate" that can be manipulated at their will, while seemingly adhering to some basic laws. But those precursors (dragon or human-like) with major reality hacking qualities sounds almost like their respective "ontotech" isn't as bound. Potentially not of technological nature. And replace simulation of reality with a transformation into a more flexible universal set of laws.
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MarcusAurelius 01/06/2019 12:37 AM
Something along the lines of β€œthat’s interesting, but irrelevant for our pursuit of saving the universe from itself”
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[simulation hypothesis] There's not a solid consensus. It is one of the interpretations which information physics - the "it is bit" version of ontoscience - leads to, but in the absence of falsifiability, the majority prefers to invoke the local equivalent of Occam's Razor and go with the interpretation which suggests that the informational universe isn't software running on hardware; it's an algorithm which can compute itself without need for substrate, as if the cells of a cellular automaton were also its hardware. (edited)
πŸ“Œ 1
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MarcusAurelius 01/06/2019 1:38 AM
Sounds similar the concept of the Trinity in wording.
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This, of course, hasn't stopped the Epistemological Threats chaps (EPOCH SHATTER) from running a number of projects designed to try to hack their way out of the simulation, timing channel attacks on particle interactions and suchlike.
πŸ“Œ 1
01:40
You may need to expand that one; I'm not seeing the concept/similarity, but that's also not really my field. (edited)
01:46
(In context, if you recall https://eldraeverse.com/2015/10/01/beyond-this-horizon/ for a dose of speculative what's-in-between-universes handwavium, the information physics people would say that those long-term stable agglomerations of entities that we call universes? What makes them long-term stable agglomerations is that they're shaped like algorithms that compute themselves. To use a bunch of metaphor to gloss over the underlying processes, they continually define themselves as what they Are, so unlike the rest of the churning all-set, they're resistant to being told they Are Not.)
The cacoastrum of the embedding empyrean, in information physics, can best be defined as the all-set. As the all-set it contains in potentia all entities, including all rules by which all entities β€¦
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MarcusAurelius 01/06/2019 1:47 AM
Ah. The wording reminded me of the interesting concept of a single god who is three people who are all one entity
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((This is of course all wildly speculative even in-universe, where there are three major theories governing the realms of fundamentals where ontotechnologists get to play, all of which have been partially verified. The situation on the ground is like trying to reconcile QM and general relativity with only a modest understanding of either, only it's a three-way with extra headache sauce.)
πŸ“Œ 1
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(What are the other two again?)
01:59
(Apart from information physics?)
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MarcusAurelius 01/06/2019 1:59 AM
Is it resolved within the scope of the current timeline?
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Only insofar as the timeline has a final entry to the effect of β€œEstimated Date of Omnipotence, (per consensus of late night futurist drunken bullshitting sessions)”.
πŸ“Œ 1
02:09
β€œβ€˜What is reality?’, you ask.  Beneath all the photons and leptons and baryons and gluons, underlying space-time and quantum fields, out there in the realm of fundamentals where t…
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MarcusAurelius 01/06/2019 2:13 AM
β€œEstimated date of Omnipotence” sounds likes an IN dreadnought
😎 3
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So a six dimensional continuum? With two compactified dimensions or having a 4D brane to which we are locked onto, residing in an hyperdimensional space. (edited)
πŸ“Œ 1
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In the former case you might unfold and fold back into a different "shape", thereby altering the ontology (?) of the local spacetime.
πŸ“Œ 1
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That's the sort of thing I had in mind from that perspective, indeed.
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Well, not sure if you can explain all ontotechnology that way. The folding would mainly impact the many virtual free parameters of a theory. But you also get new forces and particles.
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@Kerr Quick laser question, if you'll indulge me -- Is there a hard number on the theoretical shortest wavelength that a FEL can produce? Given that the electrons already need to hit multiple-nines-of-c in an XFEL, I'd suspect pushing much further is unlikely, but I'm curious as to the actual hard limit.
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There is none. It really depends on how your linear accelerator works and how long you want to make it.
17:42
There is also no upper electron speed limit for linacs besides your patience and wallet depth.
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So, in theory, you could push the tech far enough to have a free-electron graser?
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Something you might be capable of doing is virtual magnetic boosting. By manipulating the inertia of the electrons you can increase their output power and also increase efficiency thereby.
17:44
With existing tech it should be possible. My dusty draft for a toughsf on laser design has two method by which you could easily generate them.
17:45
The trick usually is it to make your undulator wavelength really short, ergo, the distance at which magnetic field switch directions.
17:47
One possibility is a laser undulator that achieves an undulator wavelength of 50µm.
17:48
uw / 2* lorentz factor^2 ( 1+ K^2/2 = wavelength.
17:49
While a lorentz factor of 1000 sounds like a lot, it isn't. It's only 511 MeV for an electron.
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Shiny. That'll make the Eschatofer -class design a lot more practical. And a lot less handwavy.
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And the wiggler strength K is 0.707. This means 228 GeV electrons could generate one femtometer photons.
17:52
For dielectric laser accelerator that makes a accelerator length of 228 m. Or 4560 m for SRF accelerators, which are common tech today.
17:53
Maybe you want to discuss the damage profiles of such a weapon at some point.
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Definitely will. I'll need to get a bit further in the design-sketching process first, I think, but yes.
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MarcusAurelius 01/13/2019 6:04 PM
β€œApocalypse-bringer”, nice
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BizarroLand ♀ 01/15/2019 7:29 PM
we now have liquid metal irl
19:29
Researchers at the University of Sussex and Swansea University have applied electrical charges to manipulate liquid metal into 2D shapes such as letters and a heart. The team says the findings represent an β€œextremely promising” new class of materials that can be programme...
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Technically, we've had liquid metal for thousands of years.
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mercury intensifies
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Or just, you know, metal but melted.
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that too
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@Overmind How is/was the design-sketching going?
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Okay. I'm going to take a moment here to throw out some rough thoughts about the Eschatofer-class, or its civilian variant, the Lancet-class. (The main difference between them is that the Lancet-class doesn't come with the forward armor, the fleet software package, or the snazzy indigo paint job.) (edited)
14:41
Why is there a civilian variant? Well, you know how we've been using FELs to perform surgery? The Lancet-class is intended to perform surgery on planets . Lance protosupervolcano magma chambers from orbit, that sort of thing.
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I can see that coming in handy for terraformers and disaster relief
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There's that xkcd what-if about moving the moon with giant lasers... you might be able to do that, too.
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To hang out some visuals on this, it looks a little like a pair of scissors would if it was quadrilaterally symmetrical instead of bilaterally. You've got your slightly conical forward hull tapering towards the emitter arrays at the bow, leading back to the point at which four big-ass loops, 90 degrees apart, stick out of it. Those are housing for the electron preaccelerator/storage rings and the control moment gyros. Aft of that, truss-mounted accumulators, fusion reactors, and fuel bunkerage, and finally the thrust frame. The Eschatofer-class adds an armored foreshield in front of the preaccelerator loops, which the Lancet-class doesn't bother with.
14:54
The preaccelerator rings aren't a conventional choice for a FEL, I know, since you lose energy to synchrotron radiation. They're there to simplify power management; when powered up to hot standby, you've already got a bunch of fast electrons circulating in the preacc/storage rings; to fire, you divert a bolus of them down the associated linac for final acceleration, through the undulator, and out the emitter array. (edited)
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There are four of these systems, obviously; while partly that's for redundancy, the firing software can treat them as a four-element phased array to provide minor aim correction on the fly. (More elements would be better, but I don't think I have a good way to split and phase gamma/X-rays once generated. The more so if I want a tunable splitter to go with my tunable FEL.) (edited)
15:04
The rest of the systems, meanwhile, are tucked in around the linacs whereever they'll fit. This design is straight from the "big-ass gun with a ship built around it" school of thought.
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Why would you need to perform surgery on a planet?
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Morgrim Moon 03/04/2019 2:59 AM
Supervolcanos were specifically mentioned
03:01
A supervolcano blowing is a potential extinction level event. Trigger it earlier via massive crust disruption and its a "demolish the state it's in" event; much better in the long term
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Also some terraforming applications, potentially. Low-power shots to break aquifers free, or high-power pulse trains to prebore moholes.
04:05
Maybe even carving passes through inconvenient mountain ranges?
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Morgrim Moon 03/04/2019 4:09 AM
probably want to do that very early on before you start the terraforming proper, but making mountain passes could be REALLY useful
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Wide shots because you would like that water to not be trapped in an ice cap
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Morgrim Moon 03/04/2019 4:54 AM
eh, if you're terraforming you're probably smacking a few dozen comets worth of water into the planet anyway
04:55
(Do you smooth the craters over later? Or direct the comets to a designated 'place of craters'?)
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(Might as well use the impacts to help with your future-ocean carving. Going to need some dents to keep the water in, and waste not, want not.)
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Morgrim Moon 03/04/2019 4:57 AM
that's fair. And I suppose if you already have convenient future-ocean dents then still aim there, because the water is good for covering up the craters later
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BizarroLand ♀ 03/04/2019 7:19 AM
Any self-respecting planet probably has elevation differences that make oceans nayway
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Morgrim Moon 03/04/2019 7:34 AM
Yes, but you can get planets like Mars, where all the ocean is in one half and the land in the other, and that's not great
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so you put some dents on the land side to generate some minor seas to act as a hydration buffer
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BizarroLand ♀ 03/04/2019 10:09 AM
@Morgrim Moon Mars has Argyre and Hellas
10:09
They would make good Southern Hemisphere seas
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@Kerr Quick question - would you happen to have/know of a good in-one-place source of FEL design information/equations, before I go scouring the Internets?
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Nah, the internet is quite diffuse in that regard. I'll look into my ToughSF laser draft though, there should be some things in it, maybe some are helpful.
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Shiny, thanks.
15:04
So - when molecules collide and bounce off each other, that's down to the mutual repulsion of their electron clouds, right?
15:05
(For macroscopic objects colliding, it's just that happening a lot .)
15:05
Essentially, yes.
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The vector-control widget transfers momentum by effectively putting non-local molecules next to each other and letting that interaction happen.
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0111narwhalz 05/16/2019 3:06 PM
oh, I thought this was going to get muonic
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Collision at a distance.
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Non-local molecules?
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In the sense that they weren't next to each other before the VCW bent space to put them there.
15:09
It puts them in position to collide, they interact and exchange momentum, and then they're separated again.
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Uh, so just denser matter then? Kept in a degenerate state by their inter-particle and converging geodesics.
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...not following you, sorry.
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You are mentioning bent space, as in curved space?
15:11
Your descriptions sounds a bit like teleportating matter next to your matter, and then teleporting it away again.
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Sort of, only without teleporting the matter. The notion's using a tiny wormhole to let the two (distant) molecules interact as if they were close-up at just the right time for long enough to let the momentum exchange happen.
15:15
So what you end up with is exactly the same as physically pushing on the thing, say, as if the intervening distance wasn't there.
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I mean, you need a massive amount of micro wormholes for that. And also, how exactly are you exchanging momentum that way? Can't just spawn directly in there.
15:19
The wormhole foam can't make you instantly be in a "compressed spring" like scenario with the molecules, otherwise you violate conservation of energy. If you care about that,.
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For the purposes of not violating conservation laws, I'm assuming that the extra energy comes out of the energy needed to use the microwormhole thus.
15:23
(I haven't worked out the exact mechanism by which it gets from there to where it needs to be, but this is already deep in the theoretical weeds.)
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Sure, I mean, thinking about this. Using permanent wormholes for say normal photonic thrusting won't work either. You can still amplify the beam infinitely, but at any point the momentum isn't directly trasnfered through the wormhole, moreso it would be like you pushing off of the wormhole itself. (edited)
15:29
So it seems like you would still need reaction mass. Imagine a ball going through a wormhole, momentum isn't just conserved globally, but more importantly it is conserved locally. Say the ball had 100 Ns of impulse and the wormhole weights 10kg, after the ball flew through the wormhole will now have those 100 Ns along that direction of travel of the ball. Meanwhile the other wormhole emits that ball and flies off with 100 Ns in the opposite direction. The ship can now absorb that ball for getting the 100 Ns itself. From a momentum standpoint you might as well just had used a 10kg iron ball instead of a wormhole. (edited)
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I think I can work with that.
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Interestingly, in that case it doesn't even help with momentum, but with energy. You could have a nicoll-dyson miniature souvenir on the other side providing you with one gee of photon thrust. The wormhole losses mass in accordance to E = pc, p being the momentum, but you can refill it using any mass whatsoever. The perfect bussard ramjet. There are no speed limits on how you fill it, although you might want to watch out how much momentum gets transfered, then again, it makes for the perfect nigh indestructable brake for your ship. (edited)
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(...argh, sorry to disappear on you, but client actually wants me to do some work now...)
15:41
Anyways, just ping me if you want something about the FELs, or maybe this topic. Spend some of the last time on topology changes in QG and casimir effects in curved spacetime as well, with regards to wormholes.
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Anyways, how has the FEL research gone @Overmind?
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Also, what exactly did you mean with "I think I can work with that" ? Work with a vector control based on local momentum conservation?
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How would cybernetic limits be managed in the tabletop rules? I assume that power and volume budget will be limiting factors
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Morgrim Moon 05/22/2019 7:29 AM
Most games do 'slots', and only so much goes in a slot. Slot is probably a representation of available volume and resources, but also of incompatibilities; if you want two things in the same 'place' then forget shoving both in, you'll have to intergrate them together first
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Alternately
07:29
You limit things by a single resource
07:29
Generally expense
07:30
You can have as many non-mutually-exclusive open-source mods as you like
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MarcusAurelius 05/22/2019 7:30 AM
Yeah, you can basically either have a detailed system (locations, etc) or just an abstract point pool
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But the cool shit all needs licenses to be payed to the dev. (edited)
07:30
It matters a lot how much resolution you want
07:31
If I were running, e.g. Blades in the Dark for it
07:31
Then Cybernetics would basically be flavor-text for your charecter
07:31
And a justification for some of your powers
07:31
It's the kind of game which assumes you're making goof choices about that stuff IC
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MarcusAurelius 05/22/2019 7:31 AM
I think less resolution would be better, since a β€˜verse RPG ought to allow a variety of body plans without needing a pile of splatbooks
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Or are skilled enough to comprensate and still be at the top of your game
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A simplification would be "If you have x amount of internal volume, you can only have y amount of bionics of z size. (edited)
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Given how easily modern eldrae change bodies, or "shells", I might make slots a feature of the shell with shells that have more slots more expensive.
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Eclipse Phase has no limit on the number of implants you can get but makes PCs keep paying for their replacement when they die again and again.
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MarcusAurelius 05/22/2019 12:02 PM
Yeah, a limit based on the shell makes semse
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I think that you need to think about your game design here
19:23
Do you want to incentivise obese players? No. Stop harping about this and give everyone the same cybernetics allotment. Again, money and access are more interesting limiting factors.
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Morgrim Moon 05/22/2019 7:27 PM
obesity wouldn't help, fat can't support cybernetics,
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Be more a case of bone structure and circulation if anything
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0111narwhalz 05/22/2019 7:30 PM
Structural and thermal constraints, as far as running them go.
19:30
(you can solve power production with more augments, but they just make more heat)
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Fat would actually be a detriment to heat dispersion, it insulates
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Absolutely valid, but misses my point
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0111narwhalz 05/22/2019 7:37 PM
Bigger characters would be at a severe mobility disadvantage.
19:37
(potentially)
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Which is that the game gets weird when a specific body type is optimal, and there are lots of limiting factors which aren't volume
19:37
No
19:37
Don't do this
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0111narwhalz 05/22/2019 7:37 PM
okay
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It won't make it more fun, will make it less balanced
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0111narwhalz 05/22/2019 7:39 PM
Surface area is close enough to constant that thermal constraints will probably be the same for everyone.
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Give everyone a finite amount of tech room however you like and then add a talent or feat or whatever you call spending xp on new rules text to get more (edited)
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0111narwhalz 05/22/2019 7:40 PM
Also, depending on setting, you might not want to make your mods too obvious.
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Yeah, I’m suggesting giving each shell a hard number of aug slots
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0111narwhalz 05/22/2019 7:41 PM
So something that tracks how visible your modifications are may or may not be useful.
19:41
(even for the trivial reason of "you have to get armor specially tailored")
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Teasy enough to give mods external/internal tags
19:42
I think hard slots can work, but I think keying it to finite resources also works well
19:42
Depends if you want to make buying the limit of cybernetics mechanically compulsory or not
19:43
Hint: you don't, many people don't like three hours of shopping in chargen
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Shadowrun has the Essence system but you’d think that some implants would cost less essence for trolls if it was based on body mass.
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It's not, though
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Instead it’s a β€œdehumanizing effect of tech” meter
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That'd about the local magic system
19:44
It's just magic
19:44
To force you to only enter one splat or the other
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Imo, you should have something like the following: Your basic +1 eyeballs cost x, have an appearance mod of y, and an encumbrance of z. You can then have a slate of options that do various tradeoffs on these values as per the goals of your system
19:47
So some laForrge brand eyefilter scanners are awesome (+5,) but spendy and have potentially an appearance mod (its awkward for some to talk to an air filter) and a penalty to encumbrance (cause damn they cause headaches)
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I think the majority of implants shouldn't encumber you
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Agreed. But sometimes players are cheap
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0111narwhalz 05/22/2019 7:49 PM
Cataclysm has "itchy metal things" for if you're too cheap.
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And your being many times over unimaginative with bonuses - avoid numerical bonuses for qualititive ones
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Or the back of nowhere you're in has only last century's models in stock. And it's broken
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In general, though, don't make it common or the default
19:50
The eldrae have more pride than that
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0111narwhalz 05/22/2019 7:50 PM
(or if you try to install a mod yourself and it goes wrong)
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And you don't need to actively feed the minimaxers
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D20 Future has CON as the implant limit.
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And yes, I know my suggestion is unimaginative. But it's also easily adjustable to a Fate style thing where instead you write out what the disadvantage is instead of simply qualifying it is a number
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Hc Svnt Dracones 1st edition had an implant limit based on Body: Resilience, with some surgeries having their own limitations on repeats. 2nd edition simplified it to one major operation and three augments per head, core, or dermis. With some operations adding aug slots.
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Even if you are fat, adipose tissue cannot viably support cybernetic implants due to it's consistency and tendency to insulate, and fat just makes you heavier. (edited)
02:48
As I previously foretold: Fat Borg Cube Syndrome (edited)
02:51
It deincentivises grotesque characters, making it a munchkin-resistant system if you ask me (edited)
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0111narwhalz 05/23/2019 2:52 AM
I feel like we rarely do.
02:54
Characters with armour for skin or brain in robot suits also lack the ability to heal or be administered medicine, although components can be replaced. Armoured skin would be more expensive to repair or replace if it's made of dedicated, heavy duty material (edited)
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0111narwhalz 05/23/2019 3:04 AM
Rarely ask you, I mean. :V
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About what?
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0111narwhalz 05/23/2019 3:09 AM
You said "if you ask me"
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A volumetric character is more shoot-able than a smaller, more mobile one (edited)
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BizarroLand ♀ 05/23/2019 3:21 AM
@Unknown oh my god I get it you need a plausible limiter to augments
03:27
The answer I read long ago in a forgotten rpg article: Conspicuousness
03:28
Any kind of extensive body modification is going to make you stick out like a sore thumb and doubly so if it’s distinctive
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You guys are still missing the context
03:57
This is a high-tech setting
03:58
Any specific technical limitation can and has been overcome - people are routinely telekinetic
03:58
And there are random citizens who are ballons of undifferentiated psuedo-organ
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Are balloons viable combat shells?
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Examine your assumption
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Amorphs are going to be kinda squishy
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Morgrim Moon 05/23/2019 4:03 AM
Under the vast majority of combat situations, if they can get close enough to squish you you've lost. Game over. For the rare situations it's not, that's what military grade power armour exists for
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Then how come not everyone is a blob?
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Morgrim Moon 05/23/2019 4:03 AM
Why haven't you covered your body in piercings and tattoos?
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Because it would be painful?
04:04
They are not augments
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Morgrim Moon 05/23/2019 4:04 AM
If you wants to be a blob in the Imperium you can be a blob.
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But physics-wise, why not?
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Morgrim Moon 05/23/2019 4:05 AM
There's no penalty to it. Just as there is no penalty to being a biped. Or a giant wolf. Or a dinosaur
04:07
Body shapes are a mixture of personal preference and task suitability. There's a canonical character who is an eldrae at home and a mechasquid at work. And that's not considered odd
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A blob at home, a cybernetic eagle at mercenary work?
04:09
So, there is no "ultimate form"?
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Morgrim Moon 05/23/2019 4:27 AM
Of course not.
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BizarroLand ♀ 05/23/2019 4:28 AM
@Unknown there are still fundamental material limits as to how much bullet a certain amount of armor is going to protect against
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[bionics] Enh, the most likely limiting factors are probably energy consumption and thermal management. But I cannot help but think that spending too much time and effort accounting for this sort of thing -and, to a certain extent, excessive concern for balance in general - rather goes against the awesome-people-being-awesome genre. (edited)
πŸ“Œ 1
17:59
So I say let people turn themselves into walking tanks if they want to. The "balance" for that is that you're weirdly overspecialized, have probably traded away enough abilities (like most of your sense of touch) that your life isn't actually that enjoyable any more, and made the world stereotype you as "unsubtle, unimaginative thug who shouldn't be invited to any of the good parties".
πŸ“Œ 1
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On the other hand they guy with a walking tank shell that he is comfortable in probably gets invited to all the best parties (edited)
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(Also, to really reflect the genre, INT, WIS, and cycles-per-second-accessible are your killer stats. Mister walking-tank-guy should therefore expect to be pwned hard by someone who spent more money on processor time and less on looking badass to people who've watched too many bad movies.)
πŸ“Œ 1
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What about cybernetic soldiers?
18:02
solider cyborgs
18:02
with two arms
18:03
and weird looking tactical helmets
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for "best parties" measured in "quantity of live fire discharged during said party"
18:03
@Unknown when everyone is cybernetic the term ceases to have much meaning
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Oh, you don't want a party, you want a par-tay.
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I mean't to say: Really cybernetic sophont soldier mercs (edited)
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it isn't a party until someone starts using the empty kegs for improv targets
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Of which there are none.
18:45
There's a reason I talk about nanocyborgs. That's because there is basically nothing that your stereotypical cyberpunk chromeboy can do that can't be done better by (a) a drone, or (b) a suit. And the latter has the distinct advantage that you can take it off .
πŸ“Œ 1
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Ghost in the Shell kind of covered the "artificial limbs are stronger" myth in the manga.
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There's probably still some merit in internal macro-implants, for special forces if nothing else.
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that is called a custom shell
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Still, "after-market" mods might be more cost-effective in some situations.
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@Overmind I beg to differ
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 2:41 AM
I feel like you'd need to rework the standard mental stats for a world where everyone is deeply linked to the weave by default.
02:42
Something more like FLOPS, bandwidth, and latency, maybe?
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MarcusAurelius 05/24/2019 4:13 AM
Sure Tron, but why not instead of implants in your main body, why not just build a purpose-built shell you wear to work and don't care how it looks in a tailcoat, and keep your flashy flamboyant and dashing party shell tucked away in a nice cozy nutrient bath at home?
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How do you even switch bodies without "dying"?
05:34
Do you come out the other side, with a memory of the previous action, or do you die and get replaced by an exact copy of your mind-state? (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 05/24/2019 5:44 AM
Memory of previous action
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How the hell does that even work?
05:52
Aren't you dead?
05:52
is some quantum magic at work?
05:54
does your mind get sucked out of your brain?
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 5:55 AM
I smell the blood of a continuity theorist.
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(insert vampire quote here)
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 5:56 AM
The Empireβ€”and most of the Worldsβ€”subscribe to pattern theory.
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So if I initiate mindcast, I die?
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 5:57 AM
Your question of "do you come out the other side […] or get replaced by an exact copy" is a null question in pattern theory.
05:58
Because an exact copy, by merit of being indistinguishable from you, is you.
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are you dead?
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 5:59 AM
Maybeβ€”that depends on whether it was a destructive read.
05:59
But you're also alive.
05:59
(hopefully, anyway)
06:00
Mindcasting is a specialized form of forking, after all.
06:01
When you fork in the general case, you're making a copy.
06:02
When you mindcast, you probably suspend execution on the original, with the intent of overwriting it later.
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Morgrim Moon 05/24/2019 6:02 AM
the way I understand it, you're moving the "me" file from one folder to another. Whether that is a transfer or a copy depends on the underlying infrastructure of those particular folders. But the file is the same file either way.
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 6:03 AM
Or you wipe the drive for the next guy who needs the shell, if it's a rental.
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So your mind can't just get sucked out?
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Morgrim Moon 05/24/2019 6:03 AM
...what exactly do you think a mind is?
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 6:03 AM
Your mind could be read, maybe.
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MarcusAurelius 05/24/2019 6:03 AM
...I'm increasingly wondering if you've read any of the blog posts
πŸ‘† 1
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Open Word. Type β€œthe quick brown fox” Save the file. Close Word. Open a new copy of Word. Load the file. Append β€œjumps over the lazy dog”. That’s how it works.
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 6:04 AM
But the mind isn't a glob of goo to be sucked out and chucked about.
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MarcusAurelius 05/24/2019 6:04 AM
well, in this case there's some Email or Google Drive nonsense, but same idea
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 6:04 AM
It's data to be copied.
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MarcusAurelius 05/24/2019 6:04 AM
the brain is hardware, the mind (in verse, at least) is software
06:05
(actual comp sci people, feel free to whack me over the head for the analogy, but it works from a layman's point of view)
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 6:05 AM
(I imagine the 'verse has some quite sophisticated VCS to do the grunt work of merging branched mindstates)
06:06
(possibly involving that lifelog thing we see every now and then)
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Have you got any short stories on a character mindcasting? (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/24/2019 6:06 AM
!ref tag mindcast
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Articles relating to mindcast can be found here: https://eldraeverse.com/tag/mindcast/
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MarcusAurelius 05/24/2019 6:07 AM
well, the tag doesn't work
06:07
try, I dunno, actually looking? It's mentioned in quite a few, I'm not sure how many directly depict it
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Morgrim Moon 05/24/2019 6:07 AM
(unrelated: "sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow" is so much cooler than "the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog". As well as more succinct.)
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 6:07 AM
!ref tag mindcasting
πŸ‘Œ 1
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Articles relating to mindcasting can be found here: https://eldraeverse.com/tag/mindcasting/
Posts about mindcasting written by Alistair Young
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Morgrim Moon 05/24/2019 6:08 AM
the "Into Darkness" series describes some of it nicely, including deciding to make a sacrificial fork where the fork knows and is okay with this
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As do the Takeshi Kovacs novels, on which the Netflix series Altered Carbon is very loosely based.
07:21
Also keep in mind that most "modern" eldrae are born with nanocircuitry for brains.
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@MarcusAurelius while somewhat true, I'm not personally convinced that the brain doesn't have a lot of the human coding wired in the hard way. Like, perhaps uploads using robot bodies discover they can emit sound but have to think about words more, and realize that they can't remember how to throw a baseball correctly.
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 8:27 PM
I imagine that's an abstraction layer or something.
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MarcusAurelius 05/24/2019 9:50 PM
Well yeah, but as @Overmind has described, early uploads will probably have to run more as an emulator of a human brain until we can figure out how to port them to a more universal format
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@o11o1 Bear in mind that the distinction between hardware and software isn't nearly as clear-cut as it might seem. Look at things like FPGAs, for example, or processor microcode. Or, going the other way around, that neural networks can be implemented in software.
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23:59
The software of the brain is stored in the configuration of its hardware, but that's no more than saying that it's a curious architecture in which the "CPU" and the "hard drive" happen to be the same component.
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that's my exact point, some of the original computers had their programming as knots of conductive wire, the program literally part of the actual hardware
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Yeah, and most of the brain's "programming" is likely to be of that sort since it's reflected by physical changes, but that doesn't mean you can't upload it.
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:04 AM
It'd be kinda interesting to read about an upload's struggles with limb drivers.
00:04
"it mostly works, except the joint position sensors report backwards"
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Morgrim Moon 05/25/2019 12:05 AM
Humans would adapt to that in about 2 weeks, based on other sensory scrambling
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except you're an emulation of a human at that point
00:06
does the adaptation proces -also- need an up to date driver?
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:06 AM
Maybe the motor/sensor abstraction layers would be able to handle that kind of thing, maybe your actual mind would have to get involved.
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I mean, to draw an analogy, I can put a circuit on one of my breadboards to, I don't know, some sort of 555-timer flashy-thing circuit. That's your physical brain, in which all the logic is in hardware. Then I can copy that circuit layout into my fancy-schmancy electronic-circuit simulator, hit "run", and get a flashy-thing. That's the original uploading process, a "mind emulation". Then I can look at what that does and write a C# class that does the exact same thing the circuit does to produce the identical output, while being much more optimized in its use of processor power. That's your modern compiled mind-state.
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Like, at a hyper advanced level like the eldrae have, the answer is just "they solved it" and we're supposedly prohibited from discussing it further there. I feel it's more interesting to consider the transition period when uploads aren't perfect, but just acceptably working. (edited)
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:08 AM
"works on my shell"
00:09
I guess the Imperial society is probably less prone to the open source/proprietary driver dichotomy than ours.
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I mean, you're not wrong in the main point - there are adaptation periods, and "driver"-type mindpatches to make adaptation easier. and a whole bunch of novel dysmorphia syndromes, not to mention the infamous zero-day flu that comes up every time a service pack comes out.
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or vision drivers that get confused by a plaid pattern and a blivet appearing in the same scene, but can view them seperately just fine. (who wants to go track down that bug report?)
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:11 AM
(that is to say, the hardware manufacturer distributes a binary blob that works excellently, but has little configuration, while leaving the open source crowd to hack together something that technically works, and might even have all the features, but is less efficient)
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But it's not an implemented-in-hardware thing, is all I'm sayin'. That's been a solved problem for a long time here and now.
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solved in the sense that people grumble about patch tuesdays but still live with it
00:12
actually
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Heh. Super example: Minecraft.
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what is your definition of "solved problem" ?
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In which people are building software encoded in hardware inside software running on hardware powered by software on hardware.
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:13 AM
yes, what he said
00:13
all of those things, yes
00:14
(I think you accounted for the JVM there?)
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In this particular case, something that can be done purely mechanistically. We already have software into which you can feed an algorithm description and which will spit out an FPGA hardware design to implement it, or into which you can feed a digital circuit design and which will output the equivalent algorithm.
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:16 AM
Also we have alternative media in which to model neural networks.
00:16
You could make meat do it, or emulate it in software… or use stacked diffraction gratings.
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In many cases it's obviously better to use software or hardware to tackle a particular problem at a particular level because the other one would be a clunky mess, but the isomorphism is long since proven. Hell, while you shouldn't quote me on this as my theoretical computer science is a mite rusty, I think that might even be implied directly by the Church-Turing thesis.
00:18
(Forgot that one, actually. I was thinking of the processor microcode, so throw in another layer.)
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:18 AM
(ah yes, always forget the microcode)
00:19
(quite a problem considering all the many times I need to consider it :V)
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(Never mind things like OS ports of the original code)
00:19
(( Oh right, it's JVM either way))
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Yep: the physical C-T derivative is "All physically computable functions are Turing-computable."
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:20 AM
Are there, uh, computational complexity classes above Turing-complete?
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Not unless hypercomputation is possible.
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:22 AM
"hypercomputation" being the acausal stuff?
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Well, that's one subset of it, but technically it's the rather unhelpful "any computation that can't be done on a Turing machine/quantum Turing machine".
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:24 AM
oh
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is another subset the self-referential ones like the Generalized Halting Problem?
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:25 AM
so the answer to "is there a class above bananas" is "all the stuff that isn't a banana"
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Turing oracles? Yeah, anything that can solve the GHP is a hypercomputer.
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00:27
So, closed timelike curves, Turing oracles, anything that can handle noncomputable reals, computers that can complete infinite steps in finite time, hypothetical quantum computers that can use an infinite superposition of states, other assorted weirdness like that.
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00:27
So, y'know, one of those situations in which time travel is actually the most easily realizable solution. πŸ˜„
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:28 AM
Speaking of which: As I understand it, the reason oracles are allowed to work in the 'verse is that the thing the oraculate produces will eventually actually be computed, right? (edited)
00:29
Thereby sidestepping possible bootstrap paradoxen?
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Well, technically, they don't need to be. Acausal logic processors depend on the notion that the answer to their problems is usually much easier to check than to compute.
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the other approach there, is to let the paradox prevention behavior of the universe do the work for you by presenting it questions that generate paradox when they produce the wrong answer
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:30 AM
ahh
00:30
So you just make it so that the "random" answers that come out of the oracle just happen to usually be the right answers?
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So the operating cycle of an ALP is 1. Receive an answer from the future. 2. Check if it is correct. 3. If and only if it is correct, transmit it to the past and then output it. Otherwise, transmit a random answer instead. Since the universe can't be inconsistent, this algorithm will always output correct answers.
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question
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(This looks like you're getting something for nothing; presumably the cost of the computation is extracted by whatever mechanism enforces chronological consistency, but the deep physics is, um, not yet effed.)
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:34 AM
So the power of an ALP comes from the existence of a fast, efficient way to check for correctness?
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isn't it consistant for the machine to fail to get an answer from the future?
00:35
@0111narwhalz at least "relative to an otherwise impossible problem"
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:36 AM
Well, if there is no fast way to validate an answer, you don't really gain anything over just computing it outright.
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The reason it transmits random (i.e., inconsistent) noise if it doesn't work is to close exactly that loophole.
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:37 AM
Unless it's actually not computable.
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I mean to say that "one thousand years" is still less than "infinity years"
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(For lots more of this, there's a paper here: https://www.scottaaronson.com/papers/ctchalt.pdf on what exactly ALPs can get you.)
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Might it not also select for weirdly low probability system failures?
01:11
Or things which exploit flaws in the checking process.
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Or just the wormhole collapsing.
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On a random note, my brain has been speculating on hypothetical IN tactics vs. imallett's impregnable asteroid forts.
20:45
After due consideration, I'm pretty sure the answer is "I got a rock".
20:49
As in - while keeping up the englobement outside its weapons range, find a conveniently small outer-system moon and apply a carefully calculated shove. Wait. Eventually, elapsed time depending on thrust available, your problem gets 10^15 tons of ice to the face and ceases to be a problem. This may be awkward if it's being used for planetary defense, but if you didn't want to receive 10^15 tons of ice, you probably shouldn't have given people a 10^15 tons of ice problem.
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Morgrim Moon 05/25/2019 8:54 PM
if you've upset someone so badly that they're willing to siege you for the multiple years it takes the excessively large snowball to arrive, you may have an issue. And also plenty of time to fix the issue, presumably at which point the IN goes and gives it another shove
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BizarroLand ♀ 05/25/2019 10:58 PM
What are these invincible forts exactly
23:00
If they’re just β€˜impregnable’ because they’re bristling with lasers, then multiple kinetic shells from different angles traveling at a fast clip would do it
23:01
At a certain point there will be not enough lasers on one shell for long enough to melt it and bye-bye fort
23:03
That’d be my approach
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@Overmind I am majorly dissapointed that I cannot find a video from Legend of Galactic Heroes
00:24
There is a beautiful shot of them doing exactly that
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Enderminion 05/26/2019 9:19 PM
um @Overmind those Forts would have laser arrays as well, and can apply a very small amount of force to the rock and knock it completely off course
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10^15 tons needs more’n a small force.
21:23
Also, I can actively propel my small Moon-O-Doom, because I have a Moon-O-Doom to hide behind.
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chosen properly you don't even need to supply remass
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Enderminion 05/26/2019 9:24 PM
relatively small force
21:25
and it doesn't matter if it misses by an AU or a meter
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Sure. But if your one-meter miss requires a 52-mile deflection, it's rather a harder meter to generate than it looks.
21:32
(I have randomly selected Amalthea as my example projectile moon.)
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and every gigawatt the fort pumps into the distant target is N GW waste heat, and 1 less GW they have for point defense
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My tl;dr here amounts to: the defensive advantages of these fixes installations mostly come directly from their being a Big Damn Rock, which makes them readily co-optable by picking another Big Damn Rock to attack with.
21:41
It's slow and it's ugly, but ultimately, if you can force the fort into either cooking itself trying to overcome the even-better-because-unmanned heat dissipation capacities of your rock, or else taking a rock to the face, you win. (I say even better because you don't have to care about crew or equipment; hell, a molten rock or a rock chopped up into rubble will hit just as hard when it gets there. Granted, the latter will be a bastard to steer, but what's your backstop?)
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Let's not forget the most important part: your grunts can paint all sorts of messages on the rock. Instant morale boost.
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MarcusAurelius 05/27/2019 2:04 AM
"THIS SIDE TOWARDS ENEMY"
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BizarroLand ♀ 05/27/2019 4:26 AM
@Ian Bruene β€œI Bet You Don’t Feel So Clever Right About Now.” (edited)
04:30
In small print, if it’s a software mind
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Assuming there ever is a need for a one piece, modular clothing, how could you make a plausible "General combat suit" that fitted a wide range of tasks, such as general ground combat or piloting aircraft? (edited)
07:10
Such a thing also needs to be reasonably bulletproof against small weapons fire and heat resistant, all while being light and easy to wear.
07:11
Additionally, how practical would a "cloth adding or removing" system for adjusting size be? (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:16 AM
take a mechanical counterpressure suit, give it an outer layer of ballistic fiber and plenty of pockets (some for hard plates) and you're pretty much there. Not very, unless you're at the point like in the 'Verse where nanotech is a viable fastener technology. It compromises the integrity for the ballistic fiber, makes designing g-suit bladders harder, and makes counterpressure harder. Just go with a decently varied set of sizes to get "Close enough"
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I assumed that adding more fibre would be rather difficult
07:18
Would adding basic medical and biometric devices and sensors such as a defibrillator be feasible?
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 7:18 AM
I don't think a defibrillator would be viable
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:19 AM
medical sensors aren't hard, defibrillators require pretty precise placement, clear skin contact, and really wouldn't be very useful.
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 7:19 AM
it'd prevent anything else electronic being added to the suit, and unless you're prone to illness-related heart attacks (or just been electrocuted) a defibrillator is useless
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:19 AM
so heart rate, breathing rate, maybe even blood oxygenation is doable, beyond that I'm not sure
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It's there in case the wearer suffers heart irregularities from sustaining serious injury (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:20 AM
...no
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 7:20 AM
except that isn't how it works
07:21
the heart attacks caused by injury don't cause the sort of heart rhythms that defibs can treat
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:21 AM
if the heart is directly injured, a defibrillator won't help you, and if it's from pneumothorax or bleeding out, you have bigger issues that will kill you long before heart irregularities do
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 7:21 AM
they cause the sort of heart attack where the heart just stops functioning as a pump
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What could feasibly (at least minimally) stabilise the wearer? (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:22 AM
oh yeah, defibrillators don't start completely stopped hearts, they regularize rhythms
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I know
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:22 AM
from what injury?
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Gunshot
07:23
Anywhere but a critical, life ending shot to a vital area
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 7:23 AM
shock treatments and internal bleeding. Not sure what they'd be. Some sort of pressure ooze that hardens?
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:24 AM
or if the suit is intact and strong enough, it can effectively act like a tourniquet
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I think there is an anti-bleeding stuff in the works (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:27 AM
after that, unless this is very far future stuff, it's up to the nearest medic to more permanently stop the bleeding, get fluids into them, etc
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I'm thinking near future stuff, at least 10-20 years from now technology-wise
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:28 AM
ah ,so counter-pressure suits aren't really that feasible then. Why would you want this? at current tech, we can't really make a universal suit that's good enough in every arena
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Only a number of them, does not have to be every situation. Just general infantry duties
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:29 AM
in space?
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Ground and air
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:30 AM
then give them a standard set of cammies for the ground troops, flightsuit and g-suit for air
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Could have some special forces uses too
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:34 AM
Special forces wear normal camo uniforms (edited)
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Direct combat would likely be slightly more armoured and have ports for shock equipment
07:38
The suit would likely have to have some ports for injecting medicine
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 7:45 AM
armour isn't great for direct combat. At current tech levels our weapons vastly overwhelm our armour. Combat body armour is mostly for fragmentation and shrapnel protection, not direct strikes
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 8:19 AM
Not quite, modern hardplates can stop most pistol and intermediate rifle rounds. Those only protect the torso though.
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 8:20 AM
huh, they've improved since I last researched
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 8:20 AM
Yeah, the US adopted interceptor around 2000ish
08:21
@Unknown why do you want it to be universal? There’s no advantage to that with modern tech. And you don’t need injection ports, you just roll up some of the sleeves or unfasten the collar
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Because doing so takes more precious time: Time to roll up the sleeve and time to aim properly at the target vein. It also exposes skin to enemy fire and the elements. (edited)
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BizarroLand ♀ 05/29/2019 9:48 AM
Bulletproof armor isn’t a magical ward against getting shot though
09:48
It still feels like being kicked
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 9:50 AM
Once again, where are you fighting? Elements aren’t that big of a deal on earth, and you won’t be doing first aid under fire, you pull them into a foxhole or behind a wall. And a little bit quicker timing isn’t worth the possibility of injury from having needles in while getting shot at
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Well, it depends on which environment the fighting is taking place. If it is an environment with a hazardous atmosphere or usage of gas weapons, it would be dangerous to compromise integrity, assuming the suit has self sealing or otherwise breach isolating properties (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 11:55 AM
if you're in a CBRN environment, the tear in your suit from the injury is either going to give you a lethal dose, or it's low level enough that they can afford to cut it open and actually get a sightline on a vein. self-sealing and breach isolating are hard to do, MOP suits don't do it, neither do IIRC all biohazard lab suits
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A mechanical counterpressure suit prevents air leaks in space through counterpressure (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 11:58 AM
and once again IS THIS SUIT FOR A SPACE ENVIRONMENT? if not, mechanical counterpressure is a massive logistical and monetary hit that isn't worth it
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Nope
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 11:59 AM
then for CBRN, you use MOP suits
11:59
they'll keep you alive while letting you move and fight
12:00
if you get hit, isolating won't make much of a difference because most of the agents used in warfare are either irritants that won't cause major damage most places, or neurotoxins lethal enough that getting in your bloodstream at all is deadly
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I think this may depend on your trade-offs. On the one hand, building multi-environment friendly is hard, the more so the more variation you want it to handle. On the other hand, if you don't know where you might be fighting, the logistics costs of hauling around a wide variety of different equipment just in case you need it is a cost of its own.
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Although it does have limited vacuum capability: It is sealed from the environment, although can only passively cool
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:01 PM
then it's a waste on Earth where it will just weight down and slow down your soldier
12:01
and for aircraft, outside of spyplanes they don't fly high enough for pressure suits to be necessary
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Hence the IL policy of making their standard armor cover the majority of the environments they might find themselves in, and paying the cost of that generalization to avoid the logistics costs, and only using specialty armor for the notably infrequent/extreme cases.
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Yes, there would be speciality versions
12:03
A C-suit would require some modification to man rate for space
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:03 PM
true, but they're far enough into future tech that they're running vacuum sealed power armor. Not too practical for "10-20 years hence near future". and generally militaries don't haul everything, they only bring what they expect to use, and have everything else in central depots ready to get airlifted
12:03
c-suit?
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Combat suit
12:04
Or GC (edited)
12:04
General Combat Suit
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:05 PM
ok, let's start from the beginning. What environment(s) is this for, who is going to be using it, and what is it meant to protect against?
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It is meant for the general infantryman
12:05
General infantry environments
12:05
Limited protection against chemical attack
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:05 PM
so, MOP suits
12:06
they already exist, and they're cheap, easy to ship, and don't slow soldiers down that much
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It is also computerised with lightweight biometrics and pulse stabilisation equipment
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:07 PM
"pulse stabilization"? and biometrics are a lot of money to be throwing at line infantry, you can tell most of what you need to know from external signs (edited)
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Yeah, I'm just using that as an example of the principle. In the near future, the window for generalization-vs-logistics tradeoffs is smaller, but I don't think it necessarily vanishes. (And in their case - well, given space scales, you don't want to find yourself in a situation where you need to get things shipped in from the nearest depot unless you aren't in any hurry. If you need to deploy tomorrow and the depot with the special suits is eight weeks transit time away, your day is going to suck. To a certain extent, cornucopias help to get around this problem, but they're a terrible way to make every part, and also aren't all that fast.)
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It is powered by a network of thermocouples and the occasional kinetic harvester
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:09 PM
yeah, but they're at the point where their CBRN and vacuum equipment is their standard issue gear, where here we don't use it unless we need it, because big rubber suits tire people out and make them sweat like crazy
12:09
no, just use batteries
12:09
that's higher mass, lower efficiency, and higher cost (edited)
12:11
and they have truly universal camo, where here we need to have desert, woodland, and winter
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There are different camos
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:12 PM
...what is that in response to? I was addressing Cerebrate's comparison to "present" Legion equipment, should be obvious in context
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I thought
12:13
You were saying I didn't mention that they would require camo for different environments (edited)
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I think that's one of those environment-drives-tech scenarios. When having to fight in vacuum is about as common as having to fight in, I don't know, trees in a randomly selected deployment, you're really incentivized to figure out how to make that possible in your standard-issue gear. I'd heard that we have people working on programmable camo today.
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:13 PM
yeah, but it's not as effective as normal camo, and far more expensive
12:14
which matters when even a small military wants thousands of infantry
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Would simply painting over the armour skin work for my suit?
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:14 PM
depends on what it's made of
12:15
it's probably easier to go with replaceable cloth coverings like we use for helmets
12:15
and your suit belongs pretty much only in vacuum or on Mars, btw
12:15
it's still a waste for Earth
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Yeah. My figuring on that was one of those trade-offs - given the sheer number of different backgrounds across everywhere they might be fighting, the amount of repainting required starts to make chameleon coatings look like the bargain option.
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Aha!
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:16 PM
you'd be surprised, the US uses three patterns and they cover pretty much every environment on Earth decently
12:16
well, three per service
12:16
(The Marines and Army use different camo)
12:18
but for the legions it makes sense, the tech is mature, might as well use it
12:19
and @Unknown, why are you expecting chemical weapons?
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I'm thinking interplanetary is where it gets messy. Even in the solar system - well, our winter patterns might work for most of the ice moons, but desert isn't going to work for Mars or Io, and Titan, say, is right off the map. And, of course, almost all the vegetation of Earth is conveniently within a fairly limited range of greens.
12:23
(I don't think it was a terribly accurate assessment, but I saw one suggestion that if you're in any sort of locally-illuminated part of Titan, with habitat lights or some such, your best option for camo might be one of those high-visibility orange vests. πŸ˜ƒ )
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:24 PM
true, but the Mars Expeditionary Force can get their Rust Red and Icepack White patterns, Titan another, etc. we can always forward stash them at depots near that area (e.g. Fleet Station Jupiter has camo sets for all of the moons) should a unit need to get redeployed quickly without getting a chance to stop by and get new camo. And of course, if they have metallic outer layers, just repaint them like we do with vehicles
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((None of which is to deny your point. Three patterns for everywhere is really pretty darn impressive.))
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:26 PM
well, they work decently more or less anywhere. Obviously woodland has to carry a lot of slack, and has some issues in urban environments and such. But the most important part is not blending in but breaking up the silhouette, and they do that well pretty much anywhere that is sharply contrasting with the pattern
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It's meant to be a standard infantry garment. The chemical protection is there to protect against possible use of gas weapons such as tear gas or sarin (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:52 PM
In which case, BDUs already cover all to nearly of the skin and are decent protection from irritants, gas masks for tear gas, and if someone is dropping Sarin on you bring MOP suits. The extra weight and encumbrance is not worth it otherwise, it slows you down, tires you out, makes you overhear quicker, etc
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It can switch to an attached oxygen tank from an external atmospheric intake when certain gases the filter cannot handle are present (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:52 PM
That’s called a gas mask
12:53
Then they’re bad enough you’re wearing MOP suits and you’re willing to take the penalties associated
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it's meant to absorb certain functions of NBC gear
12:53
it only offers a small amount of protection against penetrating radiation (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:54 PM
CBRN gear doesn’t directly protect against radiation IIRC, that’s what nuclear war medical kits are for. You down a bunch of pills
12:55
And once again, CBRN gear is very sub-optimal outside of CBRN environments
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The armour layer acts as the radiation shield
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:59 PM
Probably not, ceramics aren’t that dense, neither is Kevlar. And the main armor only will cover the torso and head anyway if this thing had a reasonable mass
13:01
Plate carrier,webbing, cammies and helmet already masses over 15 kilos
13:02
My advice: look at what is used now, look at why it’s designed the way it is, and compare it to your scenario and see why trade offs are now worth it
13:02
Because so far you haven’t posited anything different from modern considerations, and modern solutions should work well
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 5:54 PM
Actually yeah @Kerr would Kevlar or ceramic be decent at blocking radiation from fallout? (edited)
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Alpha or Beta, sure. Gamma probably not.
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Gamma and X-ray, no
17:55
lead is way too heavy
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It may help with low intensity x-rays.
17:59
Rad suits apparently have lead lining, activated carbon, and a lot of rubber.
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 6:21 PM
Lead isn’t useful armor, so yes
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Not part of my light design
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 6:30 PM
I still don’t get why you want to issue CBRN gear to line infantry and pilots
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It saves on logistics and reduces specialization
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 6:32 PM
No?
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TotallyNotHuman 05/29/2019 6:32 PM
yeah, sure, because the point of CBRN gear isn't specialization
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Incorporates light chemical protection
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 6:33 PM
They’re harder to haul, more expensive, and they’re less good at why they’re trying to do
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Goodnight everyone
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TotallyNotHuman 05/29/2019 6:33 PM
By incorporating CBRN gear you have to reduce effectiveness against conventional attacks or increase mass.
18:33
oh okay V:
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 6:33 PM
Do you still think this is a good idea?
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It needs design reconsiderations
18:34
but design is worth looking into (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 6:35 PM
Without extreme context that you haven’t provided, no, it doesn’t
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 7:09 PM
bluntly if sarin gas is on the field your troops are OFF the field, there is no infantry equipment on earth that lets you properly FIGHT on foot while protecting you from that.
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:10 PM
There’s MOP gear. It slows you down but it will protect you as long as you don’t get hit
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 7:16 PM
but it's very hard to fight in
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:18 PM
If you’re foot infantry it’s hell, yeah. Troops wore it in Iraq 2 and it went fine, but they weren’t exactly in high intensity conflict
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The No Transhumanism Allowed trope as used in popular culture. In speculative fiction settings with very high technological levels, older Space Opera in …
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That’s the Vonnies
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Hmmm.... are you sure that transhumans that measure morality in bacon production would be a majority?
08:57
This is all another case of "Writer Future Assumption Failure" How can you be certain that the people of 2600 will be completely alien and post singularity? They could just act the way people do today, albeit with a few slight tweaks to mentality or emotions; Apart from that, I'm not too sure our values will change much, as we and most species with a brain evolved to behave in a certain manner that helped us to survive and thrive in a hostile environment. (edited)
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Talking about transhumanism: I have doubts that the pace of technological development will accelerate exponentially. If such a thing was possible, then the universe would have been consumed in a singulatarian firestorm. It is but a poorly researched hypothesis that ignores parties outside of humanity. (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 06/01/2019 9:23 AM
until we FIND some non-human sophants, we can't do anything other than speculate
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"Iron riding" ships require no propellant, unlike ships with thermal laser propulsion: The propellant is launched at the ship, and the energy of the iron pellets can be efficiently recovered at the last stop behind the ship (edited)
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It would be helpful to give the pellets some form of rudimentary brain and manuvering system to correct errors, making capture easier. If you can get it to line itself up after being propelled behind the ship, you could potentially feed the pellets to another ship behind it, creating a kind of "trainline" (edited)
02:58
think of the cost savings of an almost completely renewable launch network that doesn't require setting up expensive and delicate mirrors, let alone the propellant to capture the lasers energy and convert it to thrust (edited)
03:00
Even with torch drives, that propellant is still wasted due to being launched into the big dark
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It's scaling over interstellar distances depends on durability against high speed collisions with particles, ability to deliver propellant to target and hardening of onboard electronics against radiation. (edited)
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It would be very expensive to give each individual pellet some sort of onboard computer.
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It only has to be able to line itself up with the solenoid tube
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You've gone from "cheap bit of rock" to "needs some sort of integrated circuit, propellant reservoir and engine".
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If it's aimed properly then course correction isn't an issue
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Then aim it properly.
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 9:58 AM
you don't need to use laser thermal, you could just use laser sails
09:58
which allows a network that a. doesn't need catching stations b. doesn't throw high velocity debris around the system c. requires negligible material input
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Laser sails are S L O W, they require ridiculous amounts of power to move and usually have very weak thrust
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Have you actually calculated whether this would be better?
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0111narwhalz 06/02/2019 12:18 PM
The energy-dV conversion of photonics is close to pessimal, no?
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 12:20 PM
yes, but that doesn't matter too much when you can get multiple terawatts pretty easily
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As a budding tinkerer, I have decided to run a few projects concerning prototyping bionic systems. What bionic systems should I start with? I have an idea for a subdermal speaker array for broadcasting messages, sounding alarms and acting as a form of self-defence system. (edited)
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Don’t
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I don't plan to install any, just to research and prototype them (edited)
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I also have proposals for a brain extension system made up of a system of subdermal implants scanning impulses in the brain and either 1: Artificially generating new electronic memory clusters with a solid state storage system immediately accessible to the brain via communication with memory access and storage neurons. 2: Passively capturing neuron transmission cycles and storing them on a nearby data storage system. (edited)
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... learn biology first?
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 1:40 PM
why an alarm system of all things, you have a perfectly functional voice. 2. that is not practical near term, and not all brain signals are electric, you will be missing data and have limited outputs doing that
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The implants read the impulses of the hippocampus and convert them to binary
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 1:41 PM
...that is not how that works
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Nerve cells generate magnetic fields during operation
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 1:42 PM
much of the data in the brain is transmited by chemical signals at the synapses, and affected by the hormones and other chemicals in the environment. IF so, they'd be pretty negligible, neurons don't use that much electricity
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See? "Learn biology first" is great advice for this!
13:48
This is also more #random.
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An alarm system is louder
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How would you power it, anyway? An embedded potato powercell?
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 1:52 PM
not really? Humans can generate quite loud screams, any practical sub-dermal system would be quieter
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You could also duct-tape a Bluetooth speaker to a hat for a similar system without the complexities of actually implanting it.
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That is a problem. One solution is to beam power to the implants
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Through flesh?
13:54
We’re full of water, that tends to be pretty effective at blocking signals
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For now they will be external
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If you don't want external stuff all the time - which would defeat the point anyway - you would need a battery. Those have problems like needing replacement, and exploding/melting/bad things if used wrong.
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 1:55 PM
Tronzoid, sit down and work out something reasonable, then come back
⬆ 1
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Also, learn biology.
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 1:56 PM
this is less biology issues and tech issues. Once he comes with reasonable tech designs, then we can figure out how to integrate it
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True, but it would probably help.
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It is largely hypothetical at the moment. No details have been thoroughly figured out as of yet, apart from the few I have described (edited)
14:01
I'm going to focus on more currently achievable designs, such as the speaker system
14:01
No implanting for the near future
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:01 PM
a better idea: Start with something that would actually have a use
14:01
like the magnetic sense implants people are working on
14:02
medical implants
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BizarroLand ♀ 06/02/2019 2:03 PM
We already know people’s senses can adapt to the stimuli of new implants
14:04
Almost as though they’d been born like that
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The magnetic sense implants are just neodymium magnets inserted under the skin.
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:07 PM
yeah, but a. they do something useful (or at least interesting) b. they are easy to make body safe c. they don't have common nasty failure modes
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A brain scanning system is perfectly safe if it's external
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:08 PM
and is currently useless for everything but novelty toys
14:08
and/or is an fMRI machine and takes up most of a room
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There are a bunch of useless external ones around, and I think are fairly cheap, if useless.
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If it allows cognitive expansion I'll develop something
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I've seen one which said it detected level of focus or something.
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BizarroLand ♀ 06/02/2019 2:09 PM
Cognitive expansion in this day an age?
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Even if it involves sitting in a chair surrounded by machines
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The thing in the β€œforce master” toy is a biofeedback thing that takes your blood pressure and skin conductivity
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:10 PM
we already have cognitive expansion machines. They're called phones, and don't require you being tied down
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And calculators, notepads, etc.
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:10 PM
and are practical with current tech
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But it requires less efficient data pathways
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:10 PM
we don't have better ones available
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A desktop computer (with peripherals) is great cognitive expansion and has decent IO.
14:11
So is basically any internet-connected device.
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:11 PM
yup. My desktop, two monitors and a mouse and keyboard is more than enough
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Audiovisual stuff is quite high-bandwidth.
14:11
You can pack a lot of data onto monitors, and process it without horrible difficulty.
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But what if you want to do other things at the same time?
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:12 PM
I have access to most of the knowledge of present humanity, can communicate with others and correlate my thoughts easily
14:12
humans are bad at multi-tasking
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Tronzoid: it's called "multi-window support".
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:12 PM
and get a second monitor
14:12
or just split windows
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I've heard it said that multimonitor vs multiwindowing is just because people are mostly used to the terrible multi-window capabilities of common OSes.
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The final iteration involves artificially simulating frontal cortex and hippocampus neurons
14:17
...If the hippocampus wasn't so hard to actively access and interact with.
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:17 PM
nah, I just need the space usually
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Scanning, yes, scanning and communicating on the fly? difficult to do
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:20 PM
so yeah, this in not near term tech.
14:21
@gollark I like two monitors because I like being able to run full resolution programs on one and everything else on the other. Games especially. For some things I just double or quad split my main monitor
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The frontal cortex is much easier to access, being nearer to the surface of the head.
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:23 PM
it's still under the skull, and if you mess up at any point you scramble the main part of the processing power of the brain
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Yes, it is rather risky to tamper with. Brain tissue isn't just a bunch of amorphous blobs. Our frontal cortex is COMPLEX (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:25 PM
so once again, not practical near term, and we don't really know enough about the brain to make a functioning interface
14:27
so please stop stating common knowledge and provide something for us to work with
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Well, better stick to the ol' magnets and health monitors (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:29 PM
or, like with most things, start with "what's a problem implants can solve?"
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BizarroLand ♀ 06/02/2019 5:18 PM
@MarcusAurelius blindness?
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Missing limbs, deafness, diabetes...
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i was gonna list some but then I realized the phone type solution still worked for them (GPS Tracking, new senses, better data I/O )
14:48
though new senses like, say, heat, are probably mediated into a vision type sense either way
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Oh by the way @Overmind, just as I was reading one of your old postings (Grounding) - you don't want to use graphite on a nuclear shuttle landing/launch pad. I have that on good authority and explanation from GerritB over on ToughSF. Graphite activates, and it activates into nasty stuff. It's actually not a very good nuclear pad coating.
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Check out this lower arm guard I forged
14:13
14:17
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MarcusAurelius 06/23/2019 2:18 PM
Awesome tron! Also, β€œvambrace” if you want the old fashioned term
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Nice work.
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MarcusAurelius 06/23/2019 2:27 PM
Are you planning to add a gauntlet
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I'm planning to make a suit of plate armour from sheets of metal
14:43
Fitting the thing is the problem, could add hinges, but it would be a pain to install (edited)
14:44
It feels rather sturdy, despite being cold forged from two computer part pannelings
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MarcusAurelius 06/23/2019 2:47 PM
Not sure I’d trust it as armor, but given some finishing work it could look nice
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Well, it certainly took being hit with a hanmer
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MarcusAurelius 06/23/2019 3:28 PM
A clawhammer β€˜Tis not a mace of war
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Close enough
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Would it be better to strap the plates to a shirt?
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That wouldn’t provide any impact protection. The shock would just transfer through the plate to you
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It's to make donning and doffing easier, a bit like medieval setups
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Might stop a knife or sword though, probably not an axe
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The casing I used felt pretty sturdy
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0111narwhalz 06/23/2019 5:26 PM
Consider the difference between whacking something with a hammer, and really putting your full weight behind a strike with a tool designed to break armor.
17:29
Also consider the fact that you've bent that piece, which is going to destroy a lot of the structure it gained from bends in the sheet metal.
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Nothing some tempering can't fix, although I don't exactly have a forge or the budget for one (edited)
17:57
@MarcusAurelius Yes, I do plan to add a gauntlet in the glove by plating it, possibly with the same kind of steel used in the casing (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 06/23/2019 5:59 PM
Fun. Still, it’s not armor steel, and since it’s been cold worked it won’t be as strong. Would look cool though. If you want to go proper medieval, you’d wear a Gambeson or arming doublet under it
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:43 AM
It's not a stable systemβ€”any perturbation results in continued deviation from the flightplan.
01:44
If you miss a pellet, or a pellet doesn't have the velocity you expect, or you didn't simulate your flight with enough precisionβ€”because there's no known analytical solution to the n-body problemβ€”you will lose the stream.
01:44
(and that's if the stream is low-density enough that it doesn't hit you instead of the momentum coupler)
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hmm, magnetically coupling the streams to keep them in line would be impossible
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:45 AM
You want to induce a current through the stream of pellets?
01:45
That's a known source of instability in plasma containments.
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they are separated slighly, no way!
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:46 AM
Well, that's how you create a magnetic field.
01:47
Adding magnetism is a great way to make things even more complicated.
01:47
(read: even more unstable)
01:47
Because if you have a stream of charged particles, or magnetic dipoles, you start getting into plasmadynamics territory.
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perhaps the directing of the pellets to the next station could be done via a computer controlled waypoint beacon system with a solenoid at the rear of the spacecraft
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:48 AM
Last I checked there's about fifty distinct kinds of plasma instability.
01:48
Probably they'll discover a dozen or so more with the next couple generations of fusion reactor.
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I plan to keep the costs low, so they are made of iron. Iron is very abundant in the solar system, especially on mars and the asteroid belt (edited)
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:49 AM
Oh, no, this whole thing's gotta be planned before the flight begins.
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yep
01:49
the stream is preplanned
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:49 AM
Every piece of equipment is either computer-controlled, locked into the flightplan, or dumb.
01:50
You probably don't even want crew aboardβ€”not because they might get killed by a slight misalignment, but because they might shift the mass of the spacecraft around.
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A network of mass drivers send iron pellets to each other, and spacecraft ride it, pretty much like a train network
01:51
perhaps a cluster of mass driver deceleerators could encircle the main station
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:51 AM
(though they absolutely can be killed by a slight misalignment)
01:51
I think you'd be much better off using remote laser ablation
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The problem is: propellant is irreversibly lost to space
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:52 AM
Light travels vastly faster, so you can actually redirect the beam midflight.
01:52
Propellant is cheap.
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the proposal is about (near)zero expenditure of mass (edited)
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:52 AM
Especially with ablative methods.
01:53
Because you don't even need specific materials.
01:53
Sure, there are options that would significantly reduce your performance, but they'll still work
01:54
And a laser pretty certainly will hit you at a few lightminutes, because its spot size will be diffracted to kilometers across by then.
01:55
(unless its aperture ungodly large, such as a planetary disk phased array)
01:55
(in which case it can hit you even better)
01:56
Compare to a massive coilgun.
01:56
The pellets don't get bigger the further they go, so while error in aim angle is constant, error in projectile radii increases markedly with greater range.
01:57
And I don't think you're talking about making the collecters kilometers across.
01:57
Plus there's another dimension of error: muzzle velocity.
01:58
Lasers always come out at the same speed.
01:58
It's way cheaper to make laser collectors, too.
01:59
Mirrors are less massive and less selective about materials than giant solenoids.
02:00
And anyways, bulk mass is cheap on the scale of a solar system.
02:01
Eventually, most of your propellant will probably land on something, unless you shot it out at stellar escape velocity.
02:02
(which I think requires a temperature of about the surface of the sun for thermal rockets)
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Could make the collectors a big bigger
02:06
but yeah, lasers seem to be a better option
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 2:06 AM
You can't make them big enough that you will reliably collect pellets, unless you just absorb pellets.
02:07
At least not with anything that can reasonably be called a "ship"
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MarcusAurelius 06/29/2019 2:33 PM
they thing is the propellent expenditure is all but certainly cheaper than this massive and frankly useless infrastructure project, while being safer and more versatile and more generally useful
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True, can't exactly place tiny mass drivers with the same amount of versatility
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:10 PM
It's not about where you can put the installations.
17:10
It's about what you can do with them.
17:10
You can respond more quickly to changing circumstances with lasers.
17:12
Also, ground-based lasers with ablative propulsion could be useful in low-orbital maneuvering.
17:13
You don't want propulsion-grade mass drivers shooting through your low orbit spacelanes.
πŸ‘ 4
17:13
(plus they can only provide impulse in a limited set of directions, while laser ablative drives can point the nozzle wherever they need to)
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If a spacecraft broke down, and it still had a functioning laser absorber, several laser mirrors could be redirected to aid it
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:14 PM
Solar moths are a popular option for backup propulsion for that reason.
17:15
If your NTR fails in one of the ways that doesn't kill everyone onboard, you can just unfold the collection mirrors and heat the propellant by solar or laser.
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Would it be mass-inexpensive to give a warship a backup photonic energy collector? it's literally just a bunch of mirrors and a cavity (edited)
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:16 PM
Mirrors are, again, pretty cheap, and mostly work even with small holes in them.
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MarcusAurelius 06/29/2019 5:17 PM
the problem is they're pretty low thrust, they likely won't be that useful for their mass on a warship
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:17 PM
Not for combat operations, certainly.
17:17
But they are essentially just another thermal rocket.
17:18
And there are designs out there for, uh, LH2-cooled liquid rhenium-core solar rockets.
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A laser moth pretty much operates the same way as an NTR, only it does not use nuclear fuel onboard. (edited)
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:18 PM
You take a rotating drum with hot rhenium and bubble your liquid hydrogen remass through it.
17:19
(molten rhenium being, I presume, the liquid with the lowest vapor pressure)
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can't see why you can't develop a plasma version as well, with the laser energy heating up an inert gas kept away from everything else by a loop of cooler inert gas or a magnetic bottle (edited)
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:20 PM
5800K is about as hot as you can get with material bounds.
17:21
Also consider that plasmas typically have radically different absorption spectra to their gases.
17:22
Which makes things… difficult if you want to heat your working fluid from gas to plasma using the same radiation source.
17:22
Probably precludes monochromatic sources like single lasers.
17:25
Plus if you want to run a magnetic bottle, you have to turn some of the incident power into electrical power, which may be a challenge :V
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One way to insert energy into the gas would be to use a pulsed laser to ionise the gas. Another method would be to convert the laser energy into microwaves to heat the gas, but this depends on what wavelength is being used and availability of equipment to convert energy to microwaves (edited)
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:28 PM
Alternatively, if you want to hybridize the laser thermal rocket with your bad idea to produce an even worse idea, use a neutral particle beam :V
17:29
Pro: Real good at heating plasmas
17:29
Con: Deeply penetrating indirectable beam
17:29
(consider also that masers exist)
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masers like to diffract alot (edited)
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:30 PM
well yes that's just a property of radiation in general
17:30
but it's also much easier to coordinate massive phased arrays
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The microwave convertors are onboard
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:32 PM
(I'm not sure frequency division is really a thing though)
17:33
ah, it is
17:33
it's how they generate entangled photons, apparently
17:33
that's cool
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What would be an appropiate term for something that would drastically amplify the rate a creatures DNA evolves? It is for a game I am writing (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:28 AM
mutagen. Be warned, that basically means it's changing and the vast majority of DNA changes are harmful
04:29
if you want actual evolution then pick a direction and kill the half the adults who least match it every generation
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What I want to implement is a genetic modification that drastically increases the rate DNA mutates in response to environmental stimuli, but requires that little to no radiation or foreign mutatgens are present (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:30 AM
I'd say you're misunderstanding how DNA drift works
04:30
because it doesn't mutate in response to environmental stimuli
04:31
well. Not unless that stimuli is harmful to cell replication
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:38 AM
Incidentally, the NEAT architecture is highly tolerant of mutations.
04:40
The documentation advises a massive point mutation (reassignment of the values of every synaptic weight) rate of 90%, and a 3% or 5% chance of, respectively, added synapses or added neurons.
04:41
(also a 1‰ chance of crossing with an organism outside the species)
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The mutation has to be caused by an outside source, otherwise it's just gonna kill the user (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:41 AM
...I am guessing the searching I've been doing on biology for "what is NEAT" should be in gaming instead
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:42 AM
nah it should be in machine learning
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:42 AM
argh
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:42 AM
also Tronzoid the thing you want doesn't exist
04:42
Sorry.
04:42
Time to apply acceptable changes from reality for the purposes of gameplay
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:43 AM
A better search term might be its full name, "neuroevolution of augmenting topologies"
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This game has a focus on realism, so anything that won't work won't be implemented (edited)
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:43 AM
but plenty of real things don't work ⍩
04:45
Anyways, the main benefit of implicit genetic encoding, as typical of how DNA works, is that you can make whatever shaped thing you want out of it.
04:45
That is also its greatest downfall, because small changes in the genome can cause large changes in the product.
04:46
And a large change in a protein can cause a cascade of large changes in the organism as a whole.
04:46
Really it's amazing it's only taken us as long as it has V:
04:47
Direct genetic encodingβ€”describing the structure from a genome which is somewhat representative of said structureβ€”is much more stable.
04:49
The way NEAT's genome works is tolerant, not only to changes of synaptic weights, but also to the addition of entirely new topology, because its encoding of what is effectively an incidence table is similar to the directed graph structure of an artificial neural network.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:51 AM
I'm not familiar with it but I already strongly dislike it, for using biology terms and using them just wrongly enough to be irritating
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:51 AM
welcome to machine learning
04:52
I'm curious, thoughβ€”what terms are misused how?
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:55 AM
"large change in a protein can cause a cascade of large changes in the organism as a whole" generally the only thing that happens when you make a large change in a protein is 'death', which is I suppose a large change in the organism
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:55 AM
it is among the largest possible changes :V
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:56 AM
yes but it's not evolution or adaption or anything relevant to the rest. It's simple "you broke it"
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:56 AM
Which is the point I was trying to convey.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:57 AM
also "describing the structure from a genome which is somewhat representative of said structure" doesn't parse as a senisical comment
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:57 AM
Maybe I've been immersed in ML too much latelyβ€”I assumed everyone knew that small changes in the genome should map to small changes in behaviour, for optimization reasons :V
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:58 AM
no, generally small changes in genome map to mammoth deviations
04:58
at least in a biological sense
04:58
and it is very rarely behavioural; that requires a LOT of very small subtle changes to different parts of the genome (edited)
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:59 AM
Well, it's the difference of "go forward ten steps" which changes into a radically different path if you happen to be facing a different direction from earlier small changes, versus "go north ten steps" which still gives you mostly the same path even if something changes earlier in the synthesis.
05:00
The point I was trying to make is that biologically, small genetic changes lead to massive functional changes.
05:01
If you're trying to write a good optimizer, you want the change made to the genome to lead to proportional functional changes.
05:01
It's better for exploring the solution space efficiently, you see.
05:02
I think it's been hypothesized that "junk DNA" contributes to the stability of the system despite small changes, but that's your field, not mine. (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:03 AM
I think the confusion is that in most programming applications, the encoding (or DNA) is a blueprint. It gets executed mostly faithfully, you can make changes and get consistant results. Biologically DNA is more like a musical score. You feed it to an orchestra, but the players and the conductor all have a massive affect, it's a system of interelated tones that combine to perform the product, and depending on luck a single wrong note is either unnoticable or a catastropy
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:03 AM
Right, which is hell for most optimization algorithms.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:03 AM
which means an orchestra is a lot more resiliant and self correcting, but much harder to predict
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:04 AM
That inconsistency makes gradient descent and backpropogation and other optimizers really hard.
05:05
Ideally, your assembly/assessment algorithm should not need to be "self-correcting."
05:05
That's supposed to be entirely the optimizer's job.
05:06
And that's why I marvel at how effective, if perhaps not efficient, biological evolution has managed to be.
05:08
It's so contrary to my understanding of how you build a good optimizer.
05:10
(granted, my implementation of NEAT has run into some… difficulties, but that's just my implementationβ€”the real ones are doing crazy stuff)
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:10 AM
I think because you're being obsessed with optimising.
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:11 AM
I mean, is that not the point?
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:11 AM
Biology works on "is it effective" before "is it efficient". Overkill is just fine. Cludgy hacks are okay as long as they keep working.
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:11 AM
Organisms persist because they do something well, better than their competitors.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:12 AM
yes, and their competitors tend to be running on the same spagetti code
05:12
First you make it work. Then you make it work REALLY WELL and pray the requirements don't change under you.
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:12 AM
Because they are more likely to persist if they do a better job than their competitors, they necessarily must progressively improve.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:12 AM
No, there's the error you're making.
05:13
Unless it is a high-competition niche, the reining champion always has a hefty advantage over the incumbant.
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:14 AM
"find a valid solution" is the first step of an optimizer; it's just easy in most challenges because a well-designed solution space has gradients towards good solutions at every point.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:14 AM
and if you've hyperspecialised, the beauty of it is the lack of competition. The danger is the weakness to that niche shifting.
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:14 AM
NEAT does try to represent the champion's advantage through speciation.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:15 AM
Evolutionary drift is rarely smooth transitions. It's long periods of status quo, an introduced outside force, and then massive rapid divergence
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:15 AM
Which is also real bad for most contemporary machine learning processes.
05:16
Unless there's transferrable knowledge between the old and new problems, anyway.
05:17
Which I guess is how most of biological evolution works: finding transferable knowledge in the most unlikely of places.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:18 AM
frequently, yeah.
05:18
that and lots of balancing of tradeoffs
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:19 AM
If you can do something at all you have time to figure out how to do it better.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:19 AM
"I can get this infectious disease resistance in exchange for increased risk of allergies, autoimmune conditions and heart attacks. Those tend to happen late in life after I've bred. Sold"
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:20 AM
"not my kids' problem!"
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:20 AM
(and that's the sarcastic summary of heart disease in western vs anywhere else populations)
05:22
(white people have super plague-resistance powers at the cost of reduced physical traits and later health issues. Because when you wipe out 1/4 of the infant population in most generations and 1/3 of the breeding population two generations running, you get massive evolutionally pressure to focus on just That One Thing and blow the consequences)
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:23 AM
Bottlenecking!
05:23
(another effective technique to use on stagnating populations V:)
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So much for the white "master race", oh the irony is palpable. Anyway, yeah. Evolution is blind.
07:28
It throws things against the wall and sees what sticks.
07:28
Itβ€˜s had a lot of time to throw things at the wall, however.
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@Morgrim Moon I can agree on allergies, given how many over-the-counter immuno-suppressants I take every spring and summer. But African-Americans have an even higher risk of heart disease than Caucasians, which would suggest a dietary/economic cause
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 8:34 AM
it's more than caucasians have a heightened inflamatory response, and heart disease is one of the symptoms
08:38
I am... somewhat reluctant to discuss genetics in relation to health issues for african americans, given the the whole issue with being a recent genetic smashup of caucasian, west african and caribbean and I've not seen much research that I consider remotely trustworthy. Also wow that was a hard sentence to write. Whomever I've most likely insulted, feel free to mentally slap me.
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Y'know, if you really want to annoy the master race types with irony, it's always fun to point out how much of our Caucasian awesomeness comes from our neanderthal DNA. Which is to say, yes, white folks do have a special superpower-granting event in our history. It's full sex-outside-our-species miscegenation .
13:37
So, y'know, all their anti-race-mixing propaganda is actually doing is preventing us from continuing to fuck our way up the awesomeness ladder by stealing the good genes from everyone else.
13:37
VOTE EXOGAMY.
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Historically, they’ve used neaderthal DNA to support their claim that superior white blood is contaminated with inferior non-neanderthal genes
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That one I had not heard.
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I might also note that they’ve found more neanderthal genes in East Asians than in Europeans
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GLORY TO EURASIA. ...you're bringing way too much fact to what is basically just a way to troll dumb-ass racists, though. 😁 (edited)
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Well, it should still be true.
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Hey, it is true. It's just not the whole truth.
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sdschildberg 07/06/2019 2:35 PM
Given how often neanderthal=dumb is used, let the meme stand
14:36
Racial supremacists wont like to find out that they are part neanderthal
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Enderminion 07/06/2019 3:06 PM
We've Always been at war with Eurasia
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MarcusAurelius 07/06/2019 3:08 PM
A lot of the good genes come from other human species. Tibetan high-altitude and Bajuan diving proficiency are both partially denisovan derived
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There is also that part where it looks like some of the autisim like variants of human psychology come from the neandrathal side. It turns out that the weirdos who are willing to go poke at everything are necessary.
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Given how many geeks are on or verging on the autism spectrum that is zero surprise
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 9:42 PM
And pre computing having some human memory banks was damned helpful
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What, are you saying we’ve been building our own replacements?
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 9:58 PM
I mean we've been doing that since children were a thing
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What would be a good design process for making a game? I am writing my lore via a timeline tree, related events and persons splitting off from former, related events or persons (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 07/07/2019 4:39 AM
step one: decide what sort of game you want to build. Like genre and programming language
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Python.
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Morgrim Moon 07/07/2019 4:39 AM
genre?
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Survival roguelike
04:40
It is top down and uses ASCII graphics, for now
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Morgrim Moon 07/07/2019 4:40 AM
plot is not the first thing to think about, basic mechanics are. And I can't help you with python
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it's fine, I know how to do python (edited)
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Game development... is quite hard.
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Morgrim Moon 07/07/2019 4:41 AM
start by building a bunch of other, simpler python games. Like snake. Snake is a great start
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0111narwhalz 07/07/2019 4:52 AM
In Python, consider pygame. If it's a tile-based thing, libcurses and SDL are good libraries, but I don't know whether they have Python bindings.
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There are a bunch of Python roguelike tutorials around, though I forgot which libraries are used for that sort of thing. (edited)
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#random .
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0111narwhalz 07/09/2019 1:02 AM
#otherworlds » Angular momentum and gyroscopic forces in fourspace. (edited)
01:03
@Kerr
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MarcusAurelius 07/09/2019 1:03 AM
@0111narwhalz it was in #otherworlds (edited)
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0111narwhalz 07/09/2019 1:03 AM
whoops
01:04
I think gyroscopic torques are derived from the cross product of the input torque with the angular momentum.
01:04
However, the cross product of two vectors is undefined in fourspace; you need a third vector to properly define it.
01:05
Does that third vector come from the fact that rotation in fourspace is about a plane instead of an axis, or do you need another vector from… somewhere?
01:10
hmm actually that would make sense wouldn't it
01:10
I think that has knock-on effects for electromagnetism and all kinds of other stuff…
01:11
Man, treating W the same as XYZ really makes things complicated, doesn't it? :V
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#random probably.
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I think this is the right place for it; i've been thinking about something and joined the discord to see if it had merit
14:44
so i noticed that the interesting idea of low-mass extremely-high-velocity guns has had a bunch of holes poked it in, to the point that it's in the FAQ
14:44
i like the idea though, and I wanted to try and get better numbers and figure out a way to make it work
14:47
no luck with better numbers; if there's a publicly available way to simulate a miligram of cold iron plowing through air at various fractions of a C, I haven't found it. It's not normal aerodynamics, it's not hypersonics like one person pointed out, and it's not just a straight beam of iron ions because, if nothing else, the mass of the ions are actually very significant compared to the medium it's travelling through, so i doubt it'd behave much like a normal ion beam
14:47
(will continue in a few minutes)
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The problem is just simple air ablation, plus a bit of fluid physics.
14:50
Air simply doesnβ€˜t have the time to move out of the way.
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Hm. For the first time I am wondering about using the electrolaser mechanism to assist with this.
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(back) i'm not sure it's really fluid physics though; at high fractions-
14:56
FUCK
14:56
that was my idea
14:56
rip, i wasn't quite as clever as i thought
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Hey, great minds think alike? πŸ˜ƒ
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good point
14:57
yeah, i figure you probably don't have laser guns because of practical issues, like mirrored armor being useful at the sorts of power levels a handheld gun would operate at
14:57
kinetics are much harder to ignore
14:58
but ionizing the path a-la a electrolaser would get rid of most of that pesky air, and the biggest issue i see is that you'd probably be giving a few miliseconds extra warning, because you'd have to fire the projectile on a slight delay to give the air time to vacate
14:59
rest is probably just edge issues, like firing in really high winds or while turning the gun very quickly, etc. Plenty of good-enough solutions
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A "burner" system would work, arguably...
15:00
But itβ€˜s just so goshdarn tricky.
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burner system?
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Setting nearby environments on fire
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relativistic projectiles don't do much better, though
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You need to burn a vacum tunnel, then move the burner out of the way and fire your projectile through the vacuum before it collapses.
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why not just have a solid state laser on the front of the gun, surrounding the teeny barrel?
15:01
a cylinder with a tiny hole cut out of the middle
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You mean a phased array?
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if there's the slightest bit of spread on the laser, it'll end up ionizing the center after a short distance, and you could also engineer that in purposefully
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...to be honest, might just as well use a laser straightaway?
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i'm honestly not sure what a extremely advanced laser looks like
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Like, the issueβ€˜s basicaly impossible to solve.
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No problem. Put the laser at the back of the gun, behind the breech of the mass driver. You've got a clear shot from there through breech, barrel, and target; dropping in the flechette doesn't take significant time.
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i'm thinking in earth-tech terms, which is basically "take a standard laser pointer, make it smaller and more powerful as appropriate for the technology, and then drill a tiny hole in it and thread in the gun barrel. FInesse away the details until it works"
15:04
oh, through the barrel would work even better
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Iβ€˜d straight-up switch to handwavium soliton disolacement tech, but if you have fields that can force air appart at relativistic speeds, you can just use that as your prokectile.
15:04
Through the barrel would work worse.
15:04
Itβ€˜s actually a really good idea to mount the laser array around the muzzle.
15:05
That gives emission area, which for a phased array is synonymous with the focusing area of the laser.
15:05
The larger that is, the longer-ranges the sharp focus.
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i suppose it depends on the power density you can manage that that sort of scale; i haven't done detailed math, but a projectile moving at a velocities best measured in c would have to be really, really teeny weeny to "only" blast a chest-sized hole in whatever it hits
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Why worse?
15:05
Not like you're going to have too much trouble with focusing, given hand weapon engagement ranges.
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though, with such a heavily enhanced populace and weapons which are borderline instantaneous, "hand weapon range" could be "a few miles, depending on how much time i had to aim"
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You now have to feed the projectile from the side in... a really short amount of time,laser focus is constricted by barrel diameter, whichβ€˜ll be tiny given most is taken up by coil to get the projectile to those speeds in the first place, and due to the later effective burner ranges will be worse.
15:08
The bigger problem afterwards really is... well, if you already have a vacuum burner, why not switch straight to DEW laser?
15:08
Youβ€˜re already investing a big amount of laser energy to shove the air out of the way. (edited)
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:08 PM
use a laser to blast the air out of the way, shoot the relativistic pea down the vacuum channel?
15:09
Might work.
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no matter what, if it was cylindrical around the barrel, wouldn't it be ionizing a much larger area than just the barrel? Any focus issues with it at the back end of the barrel would just result in a larger ionization area farther downrange, which only becomes a issue if you can't pump in enough power to ionize that area
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Jumping to just hammering holes into the enemy armor through the KB.
15:09
And no, it wouldnβ€˜t. Ionization only happens at the beam focus points.
15:09
Also, "pumping more energy" this isnβ€˜t Tim Taylor tech.
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i feel like lasers are probably impractical against prepared opponents on these energy scales
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Are they?
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covering your space ship in mirrors is impractical because of the sheer energies involved, and if your opponent has closed that much, you've done something wrong
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A pulse laser train with 10 kJ digs fist-sized holes into 80 GPA carbon nanotubes.
15:10
In one shot. Over in milliseconds.
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how deep does it dig into a mirrored surface that is, say, 99.999% efficient?
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Deeper.
15:11
Mirrors have to absorb to re-emit.
15:11
The pulse laser simply overwhelms the material at focus point.
15:11
Itβ€˜s like a steady rain of hail versus one sudden microseconds wall of hail.
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Yeah. There are some ways to ameliorate it, but the best ways of laser shielding, so far as I can tell, involve metric skullduggery.
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that's my thinking too, but i'd expect those issues to be exacerbated by scale; bigger laser against proprotionately bigger target means that mirrors are proportionately less useful
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You pump so much energy so suddenly into a target via the pulse action that, at focus point, just nothing stands up to it.
15:12
The only defense is increasing the bond strength of your armor material.
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i don't know enough about the minutia of how mirrors work at the atomic level to figure it out in detail, so you might be right there
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Or bringing more armor.
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BRING ON THE TAUONIUM.
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:13 PM
If the armor superconducts heat, can that let it ablate away evenly instead of getting a big hole burned in it?
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it's something about individual photons inducing a opposing electromagnetic wave, which promptly flies way in the opposite direction as a new photon
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:14 PM
wouldn't be great as body armor - you'd still cook - but...
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Iβ€˜d have used magmatter, but okay.
15:14
And superconductors... donβ€˜t have enough time to conduct.
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not everyone wants to wear body armor that weights five million metric tons
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Pulse lasers can cut through cells and wood without trauma.
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it tends to be a bit cumbersome
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Shit, you can cut explosives with pulse lasers.
15:15
The energy application is so sudden and local that effects like conduction just... donβ€˜t manifest.
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oh i know, lasers do not "cut" at high speeds
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The energy is there, has turned the target material into plasma and that plasma is ejected before sorounding material has time to notice something happened.
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you just get a explosion, as whatever element or compound it hits is promptly heated way past its vaporization temperature, straight into ionization
15:16
the only way to cut with a laser is to patiently wait for material to get out of the way
15:16
after a point, you're just exploding your target harder
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Thatβ€˜s why you pulse your trains.
15:17
One shot is actually hundreds of nanosecond pulses... spread out over milliseconds.
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i suspect that things get ludicrous before you manage to get to the point of "cut a human in half in a second"
15:18
like what you see in some fiction
15:18
if you want the gases out of the way faster, you have to pump in more energy in less time
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The first 300 nanometer impulse only explosively vaporized part of the skin layer at Martinez’ neck into plasma. But it was followed by hundreds of more impulses, and so they drilled. Martinez’ neck exploded in a flash of harsh blue-white, flinging tissue, metal droplets, shattered nanoceramics and burning c-allotropes everywhere as cubic centimeters of matter were vaporized under photonic hammer blows.
15:18
Description of a pulse laser action, me.
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the problem i see is that no matter what, you have a lot of material there
15:19
cutting a hole is doable
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And itβ€˜s much less "cut a human in half".
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Yeah. As you can probably tell, the main reason lasers aren't more prevalent at the present time is because of beam dispersal issues over typical engagement ranges, which reduces their effectiveness considerably in the starship-weapons arena. Makes 'em have to work by heating, not 'splodyness.
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Itβ€˜s more "drill a fist-sized hole through them".
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yeah, that's what i reckon is impractical
15:19
holes are practical
15:19
slicing isn't
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Exceedingly so.
15:20
Plus, a pulse laser is, ultimately, a kinda-sorta kinetic weapon.
15:20
yes and no
15:20
on impact, sure
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Itβ€˜ll kill by shock action similiar to bullet penetration, not "chest of target charr-grilled".
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but there are more convenient ways to ignore photons
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They are practical as hand weapons, but in terms of relative efficiencies given 'verse tech, kinetics give you more bang for your buck. So to speak. (And where slugguns and hand cannons are concerned, you can't fire grenades out of a laser, or use it to shoot around corners. πŸ˜‰ )
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ranging from "imperfect but workable" to "haha, my exotic matter armor perfectly reflects all photons in to deep gamma rays!"
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I thought ontotech didnβ€˜t let you ignore the energy bill?
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It doesn't.
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i'm not sure there's a need for ontotech at all, just really tiny, really well designed mass drivers
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Granted, a su-con electrokinetic gets 95+% efficient, but even so a lasersβ€˜s plenty deadly.
15:22
ranging from "imperfect but workable" to "haha, my exotic matter armor *perfectly reflects all photons in to deep gamma rays!*" breaks out the electron beams
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that's cheating
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:23 PM
OTOH, if you need to deliver more than a few kJ, you probably want a laser to avoid beating yourself to hell with recoil.
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now you're just using matter that is convieniently very charged per-unit-mass, making it easy to accelerate
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Nope. Thatβ€˜s Superior Firepowerβ„’ (A trademark of Flame Artifice Firearms)
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nah, recoil effectively goes down as you increase projectile speed and decrease size
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But at-this-particular-moment-in-history, it means that mass driver efficiency beats laser efficiency. It hasn't always been that way, and once the lab boys at Team Photon get around to it, it'll probably switch back again. Until Team Baryon makes their next... well, you get the idea.
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Also, electron beams filament in atmosphere, and they are wonderfully lethal on target,
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energy delivered is m times v^2, recoil is just m times v (edited)
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Main problem is that a handheld e-beamer sprays a bit of gamma and x-rays.
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:24 PM
@Buggy sure, if you can do that. Of course, you also have the other problem with terminal ballistics, which is sticky.
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Meanwhile, at the Eye-in-the-Flame special weapons research department, the Team Better Design Through Massive Drug Use are working on guns that fire bullets that fire lasers. (edited)
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i mean, we're way past terminal ballistics
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The terminal balistics of relativistic ammo is "point-of-contact explosion".
15:25
Another reason I donβ€˜t really like em.
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i'm not sure what the canonical range is, but i'm under the impression that it's whole-number percentages of c
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They just donβ€˜t penetrate past 50 km/s.
15:25
They just blow up.
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:26 PM
True. But if you're delivering 10 kJ in the form of relativistic dust, I'm not sure that'd penetrate enough to do much.
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And past 3 km/s, penetration gets worse per actual studies.
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well, that's why you have to stop looking at it as dust
15:26
it's not dust
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:26 PM
It would hurt, but would it take the fight out of someone?
15:26
It's radiation, if it's fast and light enough
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it's a very coherent ion stream that happens to, yknow, not be ions
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Lower, mostly. (Not exclusively, because of Team Better Design Through Massive Drug Use, but there's only so much overkill you need .)
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energy delivered to the target is distributed in part according to how far it can penetrate a-la radiation
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:27 PM
But hitting your target with 10 Gy of hard rads isn't exactly useful in combat.
15:27
It'll kill, but not on tactically relevant timescales.
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i think that's really lowball though
15:27
try hundreds, or thousands
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:28 PM
Nice if you want to make sure they die eventually. less useful if you want them incapacitated, now.
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enough that it's not a biological concern, it's prompt ionization
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:28 PM
And you get backscatter and behmsstralung with particle beams in air.
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that's the main issue
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E-beams are x-rays x-rays oh a split atom x-rays cooked molecules oh a neutron x-rays.
15:28
In their targets.
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a ion beam can't penetrate all that far in air at low energies
15:29
and also, it's a very weird ion beam with all the ions condensed in one huge packet, relatively speaking
15:29
but that's where the idea for ionizing the projectile path with a weak laser comes in
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You pretty much due to Instant Internal Cooking and Prompt Radiation-Induced Biological Functions Excursion.
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i mean, we know the energy that reaches the target at the end
15:30
i can't be bothered to find the quote, but it's enough to blast a gaping hole a-la bad horror movies with shotguns
15:30
so we know the end result, the question is how does it get there and other minutia
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Too big a headache, to be honest.
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it's not just cooking bio functions. I mean, it does that too, a bit further out, but at the epicenter it's enough to outright ionize everything in a sphere
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For relativistic projectile guns.
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it's not really a headache; we have the general functionality and a good guess at how the beam behaves, so the main variable that needs tweaking is "how big and fast is the projectile"
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I gave up on trying to justify them in atmo, the darn atmo wonβ€˜t cooperate.
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:32 PM
Long story short, at high enough velocities and low enough masses, the difference between a mass driver and a particle cannon is almost academic πŸ˜ƒ
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And the PAW is better.
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and the answer is "big and fast enough that we get a hole instead of severe radiation poisoning"
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99+% cee particle beams can just brute force their way through the atmosphere without much the worse. (edited)
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yeah, it's pretty much a particle cannon
15:32
but not a beam
15:33
it's one solid, day-ruining packet
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:33 PM
Sure it is. A very short-duration beam.
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i think the physics are probably different
15:33
if i had to reference someone who's done the math on something similar
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Itβ€˜s less penetrative.
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PAWs won't work in atmosphere, unless you are planning to kill your troops from radiation poisoning
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More point-of-impact Ouch.
15:34
@Unknown Yes they actually do.
15:34
And no, they are not that acute or a rad risk.
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I dunno, there's a lot of atoms blocking the beam
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a solid packet of atoms does behave differently than a idealized particle beam, even if it is technically a extremely short duration high intensity particle beam
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You might want to avoid gunning for GeV+ beams.
15:35
And pack them into vehicles rather than personal arms.
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personally i think the ionized path is very workable
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Particle penetration also depends on velocity.
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the projectile is already moving at values of "instantaneous" as far as plasma physics and kinetics is concerned
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Aha! IIRC there are methods to ionise the atmosphere, creating a vacuum for the beam to travel through
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ionize a small path for a short duration, up the laser intensity in testing until the path is rarified enough, and it'll work fine
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The problem with "ionized path" is tht it is such a bastards solution that marries three approaches to Shoving Energy Downrange right at the point of Awkward.
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It also allows UV lasers to operate in atmo
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On another note, the ways in which hand weapons are used should be borne in mind, with regard to why relatively low-energy kinetics are popular.
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if it worked
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i mean, the whole concept would work perfectly in a vacuum
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Actual PAW beam are better veam-wise.
15:36
Actual lasers are more efficient and less clunky.
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:36 PM
And whether that makes sense depends on the relative effects and what you're trying to destroy.
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And a lower-velocity solid round works better also.
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:37 PM
Otherwise, just use a high-energy laser. Or a relatively low-energy kinetic, as @Overmind points out.
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Namely: the infantry are the arm of restraint .
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:37 PM
(this is why, for example, we don't generally arm cops with subguns in 10mm Auto with incendiary rounds, f'r'example)
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Itβ€˜s an uggly overcomplicated marriage of systems that escaperates design, heat managment and power supply issues for questionable efficiency.
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restraint, so "kill that guy and don't give the people standing next to him fatal radiation poisoning, and definitely don't set the entire building on fire"
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@Overmind The arm of war is the interfacial k-rod, then.
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Maxims 34 and 37 aside.
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:38 PM
That said, if you need a weapon that says "your armor? Fuck it.", the ionized-path-particle-beam could work.
15:38
A Warhammer 40k meltagun πŸ˜ƒ
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Donβ€˜t need ionization.
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we aren't just talking about neohuman physiology here, though
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A real PAW slamms its own way.
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Why not just use a big slugthrower?
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No need for a burner stage.
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:39 PM
@Unknown Recoil, if you're talking about small arms.
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Good reason
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:39 PM
Ever tried to fire a 7.62x51 in full auto?
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Inefficient anyway, a laser would clear more beampath than is actually required.
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a good weapon needs to be at least a little overkill, to handle the metaphorical Schlock and/or soph with a hardshell body who likes to overengineer things a bit
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:39 PM
I have. Not real practical. And that's about 4 kJ.
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@Buggy Sluggun and ESC rounds.
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25+ metric grams, equivalent to 250 grams of TNT, hypersonic detonation velocity.
15:40
Thatβ€˜ll put about anything down.
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that's probably not good enough
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Explosive Supercondutor.
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you're thinking earth armor
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@Unknown Basically. The only reason to bother engaging in personal-type combat is in situations where - be it because you need it intact or because of collateral damage considerations - you don't want to just wreck the place. Otherwise there's a chap in orbit with a few terawatts of graser who doesn't get to push the big red button very often, and you'd hate for him to get bored...
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you need to be thinking about things like woven multiwall nanotubes, diamandoids, and more
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Dude, 250 grams explosives is a hand grenade.
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:41 PM
As long as you're putting armor on someone made of biological stuff, there's limits to how much energy you can throw around or endure before ending up as squish, armor be damned.
15:42
Well, squish or ashes.
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a effective tactic for stopping hand grenades is "jump on it", because a human-mass is good enough to stop it
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80 GPA CNT donβ€˜t stop a contact det hand grenade.
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a few inches of proper tank armor can stop it dead unless i'm way off about the energies here
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The shock transmissionβ€˜ll kill ya if nothing else.
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@Buggy Are you trying to lose your legs?!?! A grenade is a small grapefruit of BOOM (edited)
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well, it saves anyone nearby
15:43
not necessarily the guy who's serving as makeshift armor for his friends
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And FYI, I was talking those slugs for heavy-duty Anti-Personal.
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:43 PM
Again, infantry don't normally need to nuke their targets. And if you're fighting something that does need to be blasted that hard, call in some arty!
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but i'd wager that armor based in material science as we know it can get pretty thin and still stop a grenade
15:44
don't underestimate the strength of carbon bonds and clever design
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:44 PM
Depending on how much backface deformation and shock transmission you can endure, sure.
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and sure, that's just armor and all
15:44
but this is a really, really diverse society
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:44 PM
6mm of kevlar will stop grenade frags.
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If you feel a bigger need for overkill, break out the 50-gram 12.7mm rounds for half a damn kilo.
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with hardshells that aren't all that different from military power armor
15:44
so if you need to kill a baseline of most species, sure you have overkill
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As another note: remember that the majority of the worlds in the Worlds aren't shirt-sleeve habitables.
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Also, FYI, kevlar stops shrapnell.
15:45
I am talking about a contact concussion explosive.
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:45 PM
Yeah, it'll conduct the force quite well.
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if you need to stop that guy with a hardshell body who is about to Do Unto someone, you need anti armor
15:45
i'm talking about concussion as well
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Those rounds are anti-armor.
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As such, a major factor in hand weapons design is ensuring that none of your customers turn in AARs that look like "killed three insurgents; collateral damage, 753,000 civilian bystanders and a colony dome".
β„Ή 1
πŸ‘ 1
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but you want more yield than a mere 250 grams
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:46 PM
@Unknown something kinda like HESH anti-tank ammo?
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I mean, I ainβ€˜t even into big slug payloads here and am firing enough firepower comparable to a 40mm dual-purpose HE.
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also, kinetics/ion pulses are really nice
15:47
in that they tend to put lots and lots of energy into whatever they hit with little penetration, while still penetrating into the target itself
15:47
which is great for avoiding collateral damage
15:47
basically, hitting much of anything solid at all turns the energy profile from "single beam" to "almost spherical"
15:47
which still wreaks havoc with anything near the center of that sphere, but the projectile isn't going to continue out through a hab wall
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@Buggy 40mm HEDP is enough to wreck lightly armored vehicles.
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hmm, fair point
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If you need for AT for a hardsuir target, well. That was one round.
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but i'm still convinced that the armor we're talking about is orders of magnitude better
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Do Onto Them by firing 5 more.
15:49
There. Done. Junked. Gelled. Gibbed.
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oh, sorry, i gotta go for a bit
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Big Bloody Crater.
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A full 40mm HEDP grenade weights 230 grams. One 12 gauge shotgun slug is that entire rounds (which includes propellant and casing and such) worth of energy, in something the diameter of your thumb, roundabout.
15:52
That is, IMO, plenty deadly against anything that isnβ€˜t an M70 Havoc or therebouts.
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:53 PM
Yeah. If something has more armor than that, you probably need specialist weapons.
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Yep. Which can pack the same and more courtey of Explosive Superconductor tech.
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Hmm, talking about habitat combat: One way to solve the issue of accidently hitting some piece of vital equipment would be to attach a small rangefinding computer that would detect range with a laser. Each bullet would have a tiny charge that would destroy the bullet if it didn't hit anything after a certain period of time. The timers would be set by the computer after detecting distance to the nearest wall/target (edited)
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:54 PM
That kind of environment is where pulse lasers might be more interesting.
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The bullets do not need to carry a significant amount of electronics to work, just a small timer and a tiny amount of explosive to break up the bullet
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:55 PM
The electronics do need to survive a lot of acceleration, though.
15:55
Then again, proximity fuzes do, so...
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A variable proxi fuse in a (long and very complicated) nutshell (edited)
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:56 PM
That probably works. We can do that with 30mm shells today.
15:56
Hell, we can do it with 20mm shells.
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0111narwhalz 07/15/2019 3:56 PM
A timed fuse doesn't need to be electronic at all, really.
15:56
Especially if it's range safety, not flak.
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:57 PM
Could be chemical, yeah.
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I don't think it would hurt bullet performance too much to include a small amount of extra explosive (edited)
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0111narwhalz 07/15/2019 3:57 PM
If they're already explosive rounds…
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explosive rounds just spread shrapnel when self destructed
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:57 PM
Hell, include enough, fuze it to explode slightly after impact, and it could actually make it more destructive.
15:58
If you fragment the bullet, same effect. It still has all its KE, after all.
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Very true
15:58
But I'm talking about spreading it thinly enough for it to not matter (edited)
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:58 PM
Can make it so it doesn't punch through walls, but it'll still do a number on exposed flesh.
15:59
Poofing to powder takes a fair chunk of chemical energy, and that brings the problem of too much boom.
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Honestly, giving the numbers above; a pulsed laser arm would be much more effective in close quarters (edited)
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 4:00 PM
But, self-destructing VT-frag ammo is a reasonable option if you're in a can city and only have a slugthrower.
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There is another issue: Recoil. In order to fire the weapon, one must be braced properly against the weapon either via a special body mount or by gripping a nearby wall (edited)
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0111narwhalz 07/15/2019 4:01 PM
or with artgrav
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 4:02 PM
Well, yes. But given advanced tech, you can probably make a big pistol bullet or a rifle bullet do that.
16:02
Like I said, we can make a 20mm cannon round do it now.
16:02
Artificial gravity.
16:02
be that spingrav, thrustgrav or vector grav
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0111narwhalz 07/15/2019 4:03 PM
And recoil in that sense only really matters with multiple shots.
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Hmm, self propelled bullets could also still be useful
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 4:03 PM
also, calculate the actual recoil impulse - a rifle won't throw you all over the place as much as you might think it will. it'll frak up your aim, but you won't go jetting all over.
16:04
And yeah, the gyrojet principle could work. Like a 40k boltgun πŸ˜ƒ
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It's only an issue if you are wielding a .50 to take out a hardened target
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 4:04 PM
(Except they fluff boltguns as having stupid-bad recoil, but that's neither here nor there.)
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Gyrojet bullets are always going to be the more expensive option depending on build and electronic content, but if you are willing to spend a bit more, you can have the bullets deaccelerate either when they detect something that isn't the target or they go over a precomputed distance (edited)
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 4:05 PM
Oh, for sure, but expense is relative. might still make sense in the right circumstances.
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Eh, i'm not sure gyrojet is really practical unless you're going for payload-carrying projectiles
18:05
self-propelled things have pretty significant physical limitations on their speed because of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation
The Tsiolkovsky rocket equation, classical rocket equation, or ideal rocket equation is a mathematical equation that describes the motion of vehicles that follow the basic principle of a rocket: a device that can apply acceleration to itself using thrust by expelling part of ...
18:06
but that doesn't apply for things that are not propelled by themselves
18:07
i'd wager that gyrojets are mainly worth considering for us because of tech limitations, but ironically they're also impractical because of those limitations.
18:09
though, on the other hand, self-guiding projectiles have all sorts of uses
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0111narwhalz 07/15/2019 7:58 PM
I would suggest putting the rocket on the other end, but then I realized that that's just a regular gun.
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 9:40 PM
Well, guided bullets seem sensible.
21:40
I mean, we have IR-homing 57mm shells now. I wonder how small you could usefully shrink that down to?
21:40
They've poked at the idea of 12.7mm bullets with some kind of guidance, but it wasn't autonomous - RF beam riding, might have been.
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BluejayHurricane 07/22/2019 8:55 PM
In trials, I think. And yeah, they were externally guided.
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something i thought about; the Worlds don't make use of static wormholes (a-la Orion's Arm), as opposed to the wormhole-on-demand tech that underlies Stargates. The reasoning for this is perfectly reasonable; static wormholes really limit the potential shape of the network, and have the unfortunate tendency to cause the entire network to violently explode if you fuck up and make a time machine anywhere. But there is a alternative, really good use for them: wormholes are effectively non-limited FTL data routes, provided you use them sparsely and carefully. And they'd be really useful if the Transcend wants to expand its central processing, because wormholes let you fit more than X^3 volume within X distance/light lag (a-la Orion's Arm, again).
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stargates do the same sort of thing, but I'd figure that it would be much easier to have and maintain a small wormhole than a stargate.
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I forget, do stargates actually fully close their connection after a ship passes, or do they retain it at pin-prick size for comms?
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/25/2019 8:05 AM
They fully close it, but IIRC can open micro-links on demand to squirt data through.
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though, now that i think about it
14:48
i suppose it depends on if you can practically shrink stargates
14:49
if you just need the micro wormholes for data transfer, you might be able to make it smaller, and so in the rare instance where you need a low lantency, high-bandwidth ftl data connection, you can just buy one of Ring Dynamics' smaller specialty models
14:50
if you can't shrink them, then you'd just want a micro wormhole, because those can be pretty much as small as you want
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Why do you think the entire network would explode? Any time machine forming will just affect the wormholes that caused the creation of the time machine. Dynamic wormholes/gates sound like causality violating devices like FTL drives. Your are opening throats faster than light somehow.
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@Buggy Quite correct. Ring Dynamics has a subsidiary, Metric Engineering, ICC, which sells all manner of static wormhole-based technologies: non-orientable wormhole contraterragenerators, wormhole buses for computational origami, wormhole-based munitions, etc., etc.
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wormhole-based munitions to be honest, not sure how lightweight a wormholes are possible since talking with Kerr.
15:48
The collapsator warheads used in Vergeworlds are certainly a stretch of metric engineering.
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@o11o1 Remember, it's never the same wormhole twice. Stargates don't make wormholes, they work with what ER=EPR gives them. The assorted fancy mechanisms just handle the inflate/transit/controlled-deflate cycle, not any sort of ad-hoc creation. As for communications, the squirt routers aboard the stargates use the same process to open up periodic "pin-prick" wormholes to exchange data with multiplexed comm lasers. Being such small holes, they can do this without having drift issues for the most part. Although timelike drift has been known to result in packets arriving out of order. (edited)
15:49
Fortunately, most packet-based communication protocols already include that much provision for time travel. πŸ˜ƒ
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To be honest, lookint at it, size of the transit, doesn't matter.
15:49
If the time axis has to move to keep things block-synchronized, it will.
15:50
The only arguable difference you might find is that, per consistency protection, "the weakest link breaks first".
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Only if it would otherwise violate global causality.
15:50
That's not a usual consequence of receiving the </a> before the <a>, and all.
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The phrasing underselled the generality of the weakest links breaking first @Unknown. It is just the direct result of the instabilities leading to collapse earlier in wormhole with lesser mass. And once they collapse the "time machine" stops working.
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Hmm, yeah, you're right, I was misunderstanding it
16:24
i was exaggerating with "the entire network collapses", but i thought that it would pretty invariably take out the entire path that formed a CTC
16:24
i read up a bit, including https://eldraeverse.com/2017/09/13/sidebar-fixed-wormholes/ and realized that its actually potentially only the weakest link in the chain
(An in-universe explanation as to why the Empire, et. al., prefer to use their special – i.e., yes, per here, space-magic enhanced – wormhole technology.) A common question among newcom…
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MarcusAurelius 07/26/2019 4:25 PM
Though this can lead to fun stuff like the causality attacks of Sev’s AT setting, where two networks try to collapse each other
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Economic-geometric warfare with a sidenote of "what do you mean theyβ€˜ll have three decades to fortify?!"
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 2:58 AM
#fanfic »
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i think i see what you mean
02:58
but from a different angle
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 2:59 AM
When you transform an I/O pair to an internal state, you may be making stuff up.
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and in all likelyhood, if you're simulating all possibilities and weighing them equally, you're simulating infinitely more unlikely and wrong internal states
03:00
now that i think about it, you're right
03:00
you can't do this with a perfectly chaotic system at all
03:00
you have to sort of... reduce it
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:01 AM
You can't do it even if you know absolutely everything about the algorithm
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because you don't know the current state, and for many algorithms that's also vital
03:02
but at the same time, things along this line are plausible given enough other knowledge
03:02
you can take, for instance
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:02 AM
If it's a chaotic system, the I/O pair doesn't tell you very much at all about the internal state.
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hmm, the example i had turned out to be bad
03:03
but what about situations, in general, where you can reasonably infer the internal state
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:03 AM
Those are not chaotic systems.
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no, they're not
03:04
but how common are strictly chaotic systems
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:04 AM
surprisingly
03:04
consider:
03:04
The prototypical example of a chaotic system is the double pendulum.
03:05
Let's say you know exactly where the bob is, and its velocity.
03:05
Now, there's not a lot that you don't know about this system, because of physical constraints.
03:06
However, the middle pivot could be in one of two positions.
03:06
And your information is not sufficient to determine this.
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you can't predict it, by my understanding
03:07
but at the same time, that sort of works as a example for me as well; double pendulums are good-enough predictable within certain bounds
03:07
(actually a triple pendulum, but eh)
03:08
of course, i suppose in that example
03:08
you know the internal state
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:08 AM
Now imagine if you had the same double pendulum, with your information being just the position and velocity of the proximal link.
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yes, that would be too limited
03:09
that robot, for instance
03:09
wouldn't be able to function if it only had that information
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:10 AM
You now have not one bit of uncertainty, but instead an entire R² of uncertainty.
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so there are now, more-or-less, four possible states of the system and you can't tell which it could be
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:12 AM
false
03:12
There are a literally uncountably infinite number of possible states.
03:12
oh i was misthinking it, yeah
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:12 AM
You don't know the position or velocity of the bob, and you can't constrain it like we did earlier.
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i suppose then, it becomes a question of
03:14
"when does it become a chaotic system as such"
03:14
not just in the pendulum example
03:15
but in general, for extremely complex systems
03:15
like, say, the Taylor situation
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:15 AM
Well, if you can use two frames of the information you do have to deduce most of the information you lack, it's not chaotic.
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but the problem is, depending on where you draw the bounding lines on the "system", it varies a lot
03:16
because in reality
03:16
a lot of systems have immense possible starting states that are considered identical, and similarly many possible endstates that are similar
03:17
a ball bouncing against a wall is a highly predictable system if you know basic information that can be summed up in a few lines, but there are countless possible combinations of atoms for the ball that are considered "the same"
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:17 AM
If, for example, you know all of the double pendulum's state variables, but you have a finite resolution, your resolution errors will accumulate over time.
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the problem is, we can't use that to easily relate to real systems
03:18
a ideal double pendulum is a purely mathematical concept
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:19 AM
Well, look at a real pendulum.
03:19
As in, a weight on a bit of string.
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it relates to ideal mathematical pendulums fairly consistently, yes
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:19 AM
Those are only simple systems when the string is 1. rigid and 2. of infinitesimal mass.
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but yeah, the problem is that it doesn't relate directly
03:20
you might be able to predict a thousand swings of a physical pendulum within acceptable accuracy with a mathematical pendulum, but not necessarily as time goes on, because the systems are different enough that they'll diverge eventually
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:21 AM
When you have, say, a bit of string with no bob, it's actually more like a long chain of pendulum links.
03:21
Consider how hard it is to predict the path of a double pendulum.
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its essentially unpredictable without perfect information
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:22 AM
It's even only approximately predictable for a very short time.
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but the problem is that everything is like that
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:23 AM
exactly
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but there are predictable things in reality
03:23
that we consider non-chaotic systems
03:23
because we don't tightly define the possible endstates, or take the predictions to extremes that require too much information
03:24
but the question then, is "where is that ever-moving line"
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:24 AM
Take a practical example of a chaotic system: Orbital mechanics.
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non-deterministic but increasingly accurately predictable with more computing power and info
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:25 AM
When you have only two bodies, it's easy: Keplerian.
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well, except for 2 body and a few other things, yeah
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:25 AM
When you get any more, there is no analytic solution.
03:25
You have to solve it iteratively.
03:26
And if your iterations are a little too coarse, you'll start to diverge from a simulation wherein the iterations are finer.
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but what i mean here, is in a literal sense that is chaotic
03:27
but we don't consider it so within certain bounds
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:27 AM
There are systems which are predictable within the timescales and the resolution we expect.
03:28
Electricity, for example, is highly predictable.
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and nothing is predictable as time approaches infinity or resolution approaches perfect
03:28
well, not pretty much any real system, anyway
03:28
but what i'm saying is "where is the line"
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:28 AM
Because its chaotic noise is at such a small resolution, it remains predictable over long timescales even with large resolution error.
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the problem is that we want to figure out if you can take a situation X with acceptable start-and-end resolution Y, using Z computing power, and get a plausible/not plausible answer
03:30
because that's the question that applies for all real systems
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:30 AM
The location of the "line" depends on your timescale, your input resolution, and your acceptable error.
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exactly
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:30 AM
You should probably start with that last V:
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i don't think i was quite right with my earlier prediction of "infinite computing power makes situation X non-chaotic for arbitrarily small Y"
03:31
but if i had to describe the general relationships
03:32
as Z increases, chaoticism decreases. As Y increases, chaoticism increases. As the complexity and/or time scale of X increases, chaoticity increases
03:32
so you get the reasonable conclusion of "generally, more computing power makes chaotic systems effectively predictable"
03:33
but the question is, where are the cutoffs?
03:33
those relationships probably don't hold true to infinity
03:33
so at some point you reach a point where computing power alone can't necessarily decrease the chaoticism
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:34 AM
At a certain point, you can iterate at Planck scales, which as far as we know, is the resolution of the actual physical system.
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but you still need Y to be at those resolutions
03:35
because Y defines both the starting information available (the "error" on the starting state"), as well as the acceptable end states
03:35
and those scales are impractically close to infinity for most purposes
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:36 AM
If you have Perfect Knowledge and Infinite Computation, chaotic systems are predictable.
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assuming deterministic physics, which is non-true in this situation
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:36 AM
But if you only have one of those?
03:37
Nondeterministic systems are on a whole other level to mere chaotic systems.
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and its even worse
03:37
because its non-deterministic and non-probabilistic
03:38
which basically means you cannot make predictions about it, at all
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:38 AM
Incomplete knowledge but infinite computation? Well, sure, that's exactly how it would happen if it was like that, but you don't know which "that" it is
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the non-determinism becomes pure error no matter any other factors
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:38 AM
Perfect knowledge but distressingly finite computation? Predictable in the short term, approximate in the medium term, "I dunno" anywhere past then.
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thankfully there's not that much of it, i guess.
03:39
and these are the hard bounds that are indicated by the general relationship
03:39
but the problem is, we really only have two absolute truths here
03:40
ignoring the non-determinism, because it ends up not mattering in any achievable situation
03:40
infinity computing+infinite knowledge=perfect predicability
03:40
no computing+no knowledge= no predictability (edited)
03:40
any values other than those are not known precisely
03:41
and sure, that doesn't sound horrible, not knowing the precise values of a already imprecise thing
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:41 AM
The sense I got from the fact that there are AI Overlords which can brute-force solutions to largely unsolvable problems, start to finish, is that they, at least, have infinite computing and infinite knowledge.
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there are, yeah
03:41
i was gonna go back and bring it up in a bit
03:41
but what i'm kinda interesting in here is
03:42
"how predictable is the Taylor-system, given the approximate known information available (roughly human senses), and rough computational ability (computronium moons)"
03:42
the problem is
03:42
this is in itself non-answerable
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:43 AM
Resolution? Not a lot unless specific instrumentation.
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because we don't have enough information to determine much about the meta-system of predictability
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:43 AM
Computation? A whole heckin' lot, actually.
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we know two values for sure on a...
03:43
three dimensional graph
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:44 AM
R²=>R¹
03:44
is what we're dealing with
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R being what?
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:44 AM
Real numbers.
03:44
R¹ is the real numbers, R² is the space defined by two real numbers, and so on.
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oh okay
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:45 AM
(technically it's only the real numbers between 0 and 1 inclusive, but it turns out that's also all of them)
03:45
(numbers get weird when you start dealing with all of them)
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all real numbers, if you ignore the decimal right?
03:46
because you're not going to find 2 in there, but .2 is certainly there
03:46
same with all other values up to countable infinity
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:46 AM
The infinity of real numbers between 0 and 1 is equal to the infinity of the real numbers from zero on.
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yeah, its countable infinity
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:46 AM
Because you can transform the one to the other.
03:47
Nope, it's uncountable.
03:47
0.
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between 0 and 1 is uncountable
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:47 AM
What's next?
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but they map to all countable numbers
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:47 AM
no, they actually don't
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oh, right, you're right
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:47 AM
Refer to Cantor's proof.
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you do get values that aren't real numbers
03:48
like 0.00001, or so on with any number of zeros
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:48 AM
uh no that's a real number
03:48
wait
03:48
i'm stupid
03:48
i thought we were talking about
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:48 AM
If you don't need a special symbol to refer to it, it's a real number.
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whole numbers
03:48
this entire time i thought we meant whole numbers
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:48 AM
oh oops
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which is countably infinite
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:49 AM
yep
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and which does not map to the uncountably infinite between 0 and 1
03:49
because, for instance, 0.1, 0.01, and so on to infinity 0s (edited)
03:49
and infinitely other many examples
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:49 AM
(a countably infinite number of zeros, I might add :V)
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this is true
03:50
and then all real numbers exist inbetween 0 and 1
03:50
if you just move the decimal
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:50 AM
The number of pairs of integers is also the same infinity as the number of single integers.
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6.157 exists as 0.6157
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:51 AM
It's more that there's a procedure to do it that maps them one to one.
03:51
yeah, i'm really not good at memorizing laws and proofs
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:52 AM
I don't know the procedure, but I do know it exists.
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so a lot of the stuff i understand conceptually, but through a different... 'route', i guess
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:52 AM
hey that's math :V
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i'm actually notoriously bad at understanding things through numbers, in general
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:52 AM
There's an entire field devoted to transforming problems you don't understand into problems you do V:
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oh nice
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:53 AM
(if such a transformation exists, the two problems are described as "isomorphic")
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oh yeah, that's sort of the category the whole p=np problem is in
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:54 AM
aye
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because it's asking whether they can be translated between the two (and in the process become computationally much easier)
03:54
well, less "easier" than "possible"
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:55 AM
If a P and an NP problem are isomorphic, you can solve the would-be NP problem in a time characteristic of the P problem.
03:55
(i.e. polynomial time)
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yes, one category is only verifiable in polynomial time, the other is computable in polytime
03:56
and aside from the blow that'd deal to cryptography
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:56 AM
There are some NP problems that can be reduced to P by the use of clever cheats like oracles and quantum computation.
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mathematical proofs are verifiable in polynomial time, so if you can make them in P you can prove stuff completely automatically because most proofs are of reasonable length
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:57 AM
mhm
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oh, huh
03:57
that just gave me a thought
03:57
i wonder how the uhh
03:57
don't remember the name
03:57
"time travel computer" i guess
03:58
works in-universe
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:58 AM
the oracle?
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i think so yes
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:58 AM
As I understood it, it sets up a loop in which there are three possibilities:
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isn't a oracle just a turing machine with a part that can be asked a question and it always gives the right answer?
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:58 AM
1. Paradox or inconsistency (forbidden by physics)
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more-or-less
03:58
yeah exactly
03:58
paradox, or right solution, or it breaks creatively
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 3:59 AM
2. Machine breaks (unlikely and also obvious)
03:59
3. Right answer
03:59
One is impossible, and between the remaining two it is vastly more likely to return the right answer.
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what i wonder is
03:59
how is "likelyhood of right answer" determined
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:00 AM
by how many times it breaks ⍩
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vs how many times it randomly produces the right answer?
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:00 AM
yep
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wouldn't that mean its completely unrelated to complexity then, and only depends on solution length?
04:01
answer length,i mean
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:01 AM
mmm not quite
04:01
But maybe?
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:01 AM
I don't know.
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depends on how it gets the data out
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:01 AM
I read half the paper that got linked before my comprehension stopped.
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if its basically "heres a decay counter sitting next to a bit of radioactive metal. If it beeps in morse code, verify it. If it isn't right, make paradox"
04:02
then it's purely a question of the length of the answer, compared to the likelyhood of breaking
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:02 AM
"Listen for an answer. If it's right, send it back. Otherwise, send this pre-negotiated wrong answer."
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that's the actual functionality, yeah
04:03
the problem is
04:03
how dat work
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:03 AM
"In the meantime, assume it's right and get on with the thing you were trying to do with it."
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we know the likelyhood of getting a right answer if its coming from a clear source
04:04
but how does information derived from CTCs (and thus being definitionally sourceless) work?
04:04
we don't know
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:04 AM
I suspect this question is getting too close to the metal for what is essentially low-grade ontotech.
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fair enough
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:05 AM
But we are in technicalities, so who knows.
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though the solution might be something easy like "it's exactly the same as radiation morse-code, but with less failchance"
04:05
in other words
04:06
if there is 1 possible correct output, and N possible outputs of the same length or less, it has a likelyhood of 1/N
04:06
so the fail chance has to be even less than that for the device to function
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:06 AM
There's also the possibility that you get the wrong answer to a critical question, and are exploded before you can verify it.
04:06
That's a valid resolution :V
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i think that falls under "fail chance"
04:07
because it's either paradox, or right answer, or breaking in a creative and unlikely manner
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:07 AM
FutureTimeMachineNotFoundException
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that's the sum total of all plausible options
04:08
because the entire design of the device, if it works properly, is to replace "all wrong answers" with "paradox"
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:08 AM
yep
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so definitionally, it either does that, or breaks,
04:09
wait
04:09
i just actually remembered something really important
04:09
give me uhh
04:09
like
04:09
2 minutes to try and find a article
04:10
found it in record time
04:10
RESPLENDENT EXPONENTIAL VECTOR PROJECT EXECUTION COMMITTEE PROJECT PROPOSAL 6200/X/113 – β€œPROBABILITY KILN” SUMMARY: A proposal to make use of moiric-temporal mechanics for engineering functions. I…
04:11
you can use this system to manipulate purely chaotic systems without perfect knowledge or computation
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:12 AM
Simple time loop:
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also it apparently does really damned weird stuff if you take it to a extreme
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:12 AM
Input the instructions you just got from the time machine.
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see: habitat that turned into a indestructible, perfectly reflectivesphere
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:12 AM
If they result in the output you want? Retransmit them back.
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yeah, basic CTC
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:12 AM
If they don't? Retransmit all zeros.
04:13
maybe i'm using the wrong term here
04:13
i think i am, "closed timelike curve" is actually something else sorta-related, whoops
04:13
replace every time i've said "CTC" with "stable time loop"
04:14
and that's the whole idea of stable time loops
04:14
you end up with a situation where information "creates" itself, in reality having no real origin
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:14 AM
aye, bootstrap paradox
04:15
which as I recall is a totally fine kind of paradox in the Eldraeverse
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exactly
04:15
they use it on a regular basis
04:15
the question is kinda "how do they work, probability wise"
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:15 AM
"very well, thank you"
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I figure it's just a matter of the likelyhood of the information appearing from pure noise
04:16
so, low, but not ludicrously low for, say, a few sentences
04:16
because if we're just using lowercase letters, thats 26^n where n is message length
04:17
assuming the only possible outputs are lowercase letters
04:17
that's a interesting question in itself, and there's also the fact that
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:17 AM
If you can constrain the solutions, it's much easier.
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that too, yeah
04:18
but the more you constrain it, the easier it would be to just check every answer
04:18
because by definition, using it in this way, all the solutions are verifiable
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:18 AM
For instance, an n-letter word typically has substantially less than 26^n information.
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this is true
04:19
ideally you'd just want a bit-representation of a maximally compressed proof
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:19 AM
So you pull a compressed output out of the oracle.
04:19
Maximum lossless compression, because if you could guess you would
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what's interesting though is, evidently, you can also have things that aren't precisely... verifiable come out
04:20
like that time a book author tried to pre-write his books in advance, and it produced a apology note from himself that that didn't work
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:20 AM
It was consistent, though.
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it was consistent, but that's a even bigger question
04:21
with a proof machine
04:21
the outcome is straightforward
04:21
assuming i'm right about it being entropy based
04:21
you get the right answer, or the most likely failure mode of the device, whichever wins the dice roll
04:22
the information has no true source, but its production is easily understood
04:22
how does that work with, say, sending a message to yourself
04:22
that's... probably a detailed ontotech problem, actually
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:23 AM
I'm more interested in how it works if you try to destroy the note halfway.
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also that
04:23
hmm
04:23
now that i think about it
04:23
stable timeloops sorta relate to chaotic systems
04:24
they give you absolute accurate information of the end state
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:24 AM
I suspect the solution is that, if the information that comes out has any way to get back in, it will (edited)
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i think what happens is sort of a chaotic system in reverse
04:25
the system becomes deterministic, within constraints of the known end state
04:25
you know, for a fact that X information will go back
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:25 AM
But if there is no way, it will slag itself every time.
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everything else is chaotic, in a sort of mirror-image of trying to make chaotic systems deterministic
04:26
and in general, you get the deterministic outcome that wins the dice roll
04:26
so either a likely outcome, or a more likely failure mode
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:26 AM
When you use an oracle, events lock.
04:27
You must produce that outcome, or the oracle failed.
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no, a event locks
04:27
you know, for absolute fact
04:27
the exact state of a exactingly specified system at a exact moment
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:28 AM
(see also: Odin's reluctance to precogitate about Ragnarok)
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that cannot constrain all systems
04:28
just like how imperfect information limits the possible computed determinism of chaotic systems
04:29
the limited amount of perfect information limits the possible chaoticness of the deterministic system
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:29 AM
Somehow, somewhen, someone must feed that information into the oracle's future end.
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yes, that's a absolute given
04:29
well, wait
04:29
no, its not
04:29
when you get the message
04:29
you know
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:29 AM
Or the oracle failed.
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for absolute fact
04:30
one thing happened:
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:30 AM
There are no other possibilities.
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that information that you just recieved, was sent back in time. Possibly from a known time.
04:30
its technically possible for the oracle system to break in a manner that sends the information
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:30 AM
I think oracles only work continuously.
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all you know for sure is that at X time, Y information goes back
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:31 AM
That is, one oracle endpoint can only connect to itself at another time.
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the rest of the deterministic system is completely unknown definitionally
04:32
remember here, functionally, a stable time loop with just a message isn't quite the same as a oracle
04:32
it's not being verified or anything
04:32
a oracle uses parodoxes to limit the possible messages recieved
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:32 AM
Which means you can't connect a new oracular machine to the one you already have, unless you harvest its magic bits.
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without a oracle but still with a stable time loop, the messages aren't limited by anything
04:33
you just know, for a absolute fact, that whatever message just popped out of the air will be sent back somehow
04:33
this is the situation that, for instace
04:33
uhh
04:33
From Neithe Daphnotarthius the Elder to Neithe Daphnotarthius the Younger, greeting. This message is not the manuscripts you expected to be delivered the day after having your brilliant idea, regre…
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:34 AM
Either the message gets sent back, or the message appeared randomly.
04:34
i wonder if we should assume that you can verify that the message came from the future in all scenarios
04:34
even if the content isn't bounded by a designed system
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:36 AM
Is "information came from noise" distinguishable from "information came from the future?"
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exactly, that's the question
04:36
should we assume "yes" or "no"
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:37 AM
You can make the answer moot if it's verifiable information.
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because something like a proof-machine can't really enforce that without also limiting the possible messages
04:37
but if you think about it
04:37
the message is constrained by probability all the same
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:37 AM
You can verify a proof.
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yes but what i mean here is
04:37
the message that suddenly exists
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:38 AM
If it's distinguishable, oh wellβ€”you have to do it the hard way, I guess.
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is the most likely output of the system X time from then
04:38
like, how a proof machine rolls the dice for either "right answer" or "creative failure"
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:38 AM
If it's indistinguishable, who caresβ€”you have the right answer, sweet.
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a less constrained message rolls the dice of physics
04:39
in a practical example
04:39
if you get a message from yourself
04:39
it is far more likely that you will simply write it to yourself and send it at that time
04:39
as opposed to, for instance, a time machine spontaneously forming out of a cloud of hydrogen and sending it back
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:40 AM
>wait, that's how we got this time machine
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techically, only information goes back
04:40
the time machine has to be built
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:41 AM
it spontaneously formed out of a cloud of hydrogen, though
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it's mentioned somewhere else that sending matter back is nigh-impossible because the quantum state has to have remained completely unchanged
04:41
well, thats the thing
04:42
no matter transmission implies that there's either 1 time machine that has to keep existing, or two that exist at the right moment
04:42
it can't send itself back
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0111narwhalz 08/06/2019 4:42 AM
clearly the entire purpose of the universe is to close a loose loop of the last go-around
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actually, that's what i was sortof getting at earlier
04:42
a closed time loop like this is sort of the inverse of a chaotic system prediction
04:43
instead of having imperfect information about the present
04:43
you get absolutely perfect information about one very-tightly-constrained portion of the future
04:43
and so it becomes a line of chaoticism>determinism as time goes on
04:44
the overall approximate deterministicness of the area increases as you approach that point, peaks, and then decreases from there (edited)
04:44
i wonder how computation plays in
04:44
i guess if you take that perfect information and run it backwards, you increase the determinism from that time backwards?
04:45
this is also really interesting because at its core
04:45
it lets you take a chaotic system and define a endstate, perfectly
04:45
that's even what a oracle is doing, technically
04:45
it's forcing the highly chaotic system of itself to be either "this right answer, or a very unlikely failure mode"
04:46
RESPLENDENT EXPONENTIAL VECTOR PROJECT EXECUTION COMMITTEE PROJECT PROPOSAL 6200/X/113 – β€œPROBABILITY KILN” SUMMARY: A proposal to make use of moiric-temporal mechanics for engineering functions. I…
04:46
for manufacturing
04:46
taking low-probability events and forcing them to become usefully-likely
04:49
... huh
04:49
@Overmind did we just figure out how, generally, the Weakly-Godlike use stable time loops for computation?
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To a reasonable extent, yes.
01:00
Although a qualified temporal mechanic from the 'verse would point out that you don't actually enforce determinism this way: it's just that your perception of events and the causal chains that order events aren't all pointing in the same direction.
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makes sense, i suppose; effectively you have a, well, loop
01:15
so the events at both ends of the time loop are directly connected, just as much as, say, the events of any other physical system are connected between any time X, and X+1
01:16
(or alternatively they might be the same event in two places in time at once)
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 1:26 AM
simultaneity is squishy enough without literal time travel getting involved
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i'm not sure whether it'd be simultaneity or just the next instant
01:51
like, for instance, a photon, and the same photon but 1 plank time later
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 1:52 AM
well the thing is that the order of events outside of one another's is entirely dependant on reference frame
01:53
but here you have events which are ordered, but on the wrong sides of their light cones
01:58
maybe it'd help to look at how it's actually done, to get a better idea of how it works
01:58
the only method i'm aware of is essentially "tangle through time"
01:59
where you have tangle that transmits a message to itself, with a time offset
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:00 AM
You could do it with a bad wormhole arrangement, as long as you kept the vacuum appropriately vacuous.
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isn't there a thingy where virtual particles multiply infinitely?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:00 AM
(so there's no danger of the good old time clone cascade)
02:00
oh yeah virtual particles shit
02:01
gorram quantum foam
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with the tangle method, i guess it would technically qualify as the same event?
02:02
because you're using nonlocal hidden variables to communicate... somehow.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:02 AM
wellβ€”hm
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my guess is that you somehow tweak the value of one of the variables, and measure it on the other end?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:03 AM
You have to produce a time loop, right?
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but that would imply a infinite, or very large number of variables
02:03
i'm just trying to figure out how tangle probably works
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:03 AM
But that doesn't mean you have to produce a regular loop.
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because if the ultimate communication method is a change in a nonlocal variable across time, then you know that you're essentially looking at the same event in two places in time at once
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:04 AM
So there's not necessarily a path which takes an inconvenient virtual particle through the wormhole, to the other end, and then back.
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does it count if the loop is timelike?
02:05
err, the path*
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:05 AM
You can contract and dilate wormhole endpoints at will.
02:05
A virtual particle wouldn't be able to make it from one endpoint to the other, because they have limited lifespans.
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to be honest i'm not entirely sure how virtual particles work conceptually
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:07 AM
From what I understand, they're sort of like noise on the probability distributions?
02:08
And sometimes they do stuff and exist, and sometimes they don't, because they never did anything.
02:09
(or something)
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skimming wikipedia, it seems like
02:10
uncertainty means that the quantum foam is effectively fluctuating, and sometimes the fluctuations are large enough to effectively be a particle, because particles are themselves fluctuations in the foam
02:11
but they don't necessarily have all the same properties, and they aren't permanent because of "THING I DON'T KNOW" and because they don't show up on "THING I DON'T KNOW"
02:12
nnno idea how that works, but it sure sounds like they're time-transient so yeah sure i guess time displacement is okay?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:13 AM
To make them "stick," you have to put the mass-energy in.
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i guess in practice, there's no way to get a wormhole with one end time displaced forward that we know of
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:13 AM
Otherwise they go away after a while, and they can't carry momentum or energy.
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we know that wormholes with backwards displacement (a spacetime path length between them >0) are theoretically possible, and they explode if you move them such that the spacetime path = 0
02:14
so normally you shouldn't be ableto get one with a negative spacetime path length, unless you can create one with that property immediately (edited)
02:15
but i think stargates... kinda do that?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:15 AM
just look at the other end of a regular time-displaced wormhole
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:16 AM
(which gets you the interesting problem of giving an oracle to the past instead of getting one from the future)
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what i mean is
02:16
if you make just a normal, permanent wormhole
02:17
the spacetime path is greater than 0; it's absolutely impossible for information to take a path faster than light
02:17
this is true even if you arrange them so that, say, they're 100 light years apart, but the one on the far end is 99 light years in the "past"
02:17
such that if you shine a laser at that end, and then walk through, it still takes a year to see it show up
02:18
if you try to move them so that one end is in the path, such that you can aim a laser at the other end and then peek through and see it arrive before you press the trigger
02:19
(that is, information can pass through faster than a normal space path, so it has a negative distance between the two ends in space time)
02:19
then, well
02:19
you get the virtual particle multiplication (edited)
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:19 AM
so what if you construct such a wormhole
02:20
(100LY away, 99Y in the past)
02:20
shoot a laser past it, walk through, wait a year for the laser, right
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:21 AM
but what if you walk through, shoot a laser back, past it again, and then walk back through
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what do you mean "past it again"
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:22 AM
from the far end to the near end via flat space
02:22
You're 100LY away, 99Y in the future.
02:23
You traverse the wormhole and arrive… 199 years before the laser is seen.
02:23
right?
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so you walk through, fire a laser at where you were at first, and then
02:23
you mean fly to it via flat space?
02:24
walk through, fire laser at other end, fly back via flat space?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:24 AM
okay we need labels
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i'm just not sure what you meant by "past it again"
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:24 AM
Origin: the point at which the zero-displacement endpoint is kept
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alright
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:25 AM
Destination: the point at which the displaced endpoint is kept.
02:26
We'll say Destination is 100LY displaced in space and -99LY displaced in time.
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alright
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:27 AM
Such that in the time it takes for you to traverse the wormhole from Origin to Destination, the light from a laser fired from Origin has already been there for one year.
02:27
(wait, that doesn't make sense hold on)
02:28
[hard disk seek noises]
02:28
okay so it takes 100Y for light to get from Origin to Destination via flat space
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:29 AM
It takes zero proper time to get from Origin to Destination via the wormhole, but you arrive 1 year after the light that took the long way does.
02:30
Therefore Destination must be displaced by -99 years, okay.
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1 year before
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:31 AM
So the spatial displacement plus the temporal displacement 100-99=1
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:31 AM
No, you cannot arrive before the light
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no i see what you mean
02:31
i misread it, yeah you're right
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:31 AM
That total displacement has to equal or exceed zero.
02:32
(if it's equal to zero you're just moving at exactly lightspeed)
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wait, no
02:32
i think i was right there
02:33
going from origin to destination via the wormhole takes 0 time, but you arrive 1 year before the light that took the long way reaches it
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:33 AM
uh
02:34
still can't antedate your cause though
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if you arrived 1 year after, that means you could go through and see a light pulse before you sent it
02:34
well, okay, how about this
02:34
you aim a light pulse at the other end of the wormhole, so it flies through
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:34 AM
no, you arrive after the light's gotten there and been detected
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by walking through the wormhole, right?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:34 AM
you arrive after your cause in every case
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no, what i mean is
02:35
you are saying
02:35
"you fire a light pulse at the Destination. You immediately walk through, and arrive 1 year after the light has gotten there and been detected" (edited)
02:35
right?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:35 AM
Yes.
02:35
what if i sit a person at the other end, and tell them to watch for a light pulse
02:36
and if they see one, come back and break my laser pointer
02:36
and then wait a year, and shoot the laser
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:36 AM
we aren't there yet
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alright
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:37 AM
We need to get the Origin→Destination transit figured out first.
02:37
So your light gets there a year before you do.
02:37
Physics is happy.
02:37
Now let's consider Destination→Origin
02:38
If the displacement in space is unsignedβ€”because distances are the same either wayβ€”but the temporal distance is signed
02:38
You now have a coordinate transit time of 100+99=199
02:39
Which means these wormholes are effectively one-way, because going O→D and then D→O takes 200 years longer than light would take to make the same round trip.
02:40
i.e. twice as long
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that's impossible though
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:41 AM
Whichβ€”hey, .5c is not terrible
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wormholes are a path through space
02:41
you could tie a rope to a rock and pull it through, and then pull it taut
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:41 AM
And by your proper time it's zero time.
02:42
It's just zero time that… doesn't work?
02:42
So I think that means temporal displacement can't be signed.
02:43
If temporal distance is unsigned, though, you still can't win, because your round trip is 2 years longer than light.
02:44
This kind of wormhole, therefore, will shred anything that comes through it by destroying its bonds by time shear.
02:44
Or something?
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it can't
02:44
that's not how wormholes work
02:44
its literally a path through space
02:45
just one that doesn't follow normal topology
02:45
space-time works normally while flying through a wormhole
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:45 AM
So a path through space has to follow "path through space" rules.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:45 AM
In particular, light can go through it.
02:46
Which means that your wormhole should be able to transmit your cause just as well as it can transmit you
02:46
Right?
02:47
let me think
02:47
so in the previous examle
02:47
example*
02:48
you fire a laser from Origin to Destination. That's a distance of 100LY but it's displaced favorably by 99 years, so if you walk through (or just look through and watch for the pulse) you'll see it arrive a year after you fired it, subjectively
02:49
if you do the reverse; fire a laser from destination to origin, it would take 199 years to see, i think
02:49
or... would it
02:49
hmm
02:50
i mean, the time displacement has to be signed, right?
02:51
okay, hypothetical
02:51
you have magic that lets you see a laser beam in flight
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:51 AM
Even if the temporal displacement is unsigned, the total time of the round trip via flat space is 200 years, and via wormhole is 202 years.
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so you're sitting on the destination
02:51
and you see that light pulse you sent one year ago arrive
02:51
so if you had arbitrarily good eyes
02:52
you could look at the far end, and see yourself holding the laser and pressing the trigger at that moment
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:52 AM
Then walking through the wormhole.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:52 AM
A year later, you would come out.
02:52
you look at the far end, see you shoot the laser (and it blinds you at the same time, because it appears to arrive instantly after that event)
02:53
and then you see yourself walk through
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:53 AM
wait
02:54
You can't see yourself do anything, because that would mean you got where you are before your light did.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:55 AM
So let's say I am watching a hypothetical person named Steve carry out the experiment.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:55 AM
At the start of the experiment, I am sitting on Destination, he on Origin.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:55 AM
We set our watches by the laser flash.
02:56
which laser flash
02:56
describe the setup
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:56 AM
Steve's procedure is as such:
02:57
1. Fire laser 2. Traverse wormhole 3. Return via wormhole
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"traverse" meaining?
02:57
he just walks through to destination side, and walks back?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:57 AM
"go through"
02:57
yes
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:58 AM
Step 1 and 2 occur simultaneously, at T+0 on both our timelines. (edited)
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so he fires the laser and walks through at the same time, yep
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:58 AM
Steve spends 0 time inside the wormhole.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 2:59 AM
He then spends 0 time on Destination, because even when he visits he never visits.
02:59
Finally, he spends 0 time in the wormhole again.
02:59
His clock reads T+0 at the end of the experiment.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:00 AM
I see the flash at T+0, and watch Steve enter the wormhole.
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flash, from what path
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:00 AM
Via flat space.
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you're looking at the origin with a telescope via flat space?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:01 AM
aye
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no, you don't see the flash
03:01
you have to sit there 1 year
03:01
100 years distance, 99 years in the future
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:01 AM
No, I set my clock by the flash.
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okay, so hypothetical then
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:01 AM
It is definitionally T+0
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you're sitting there, one screen showing a lens that displays the image of the Origin via telescope
03:02
not electronic, no propagation delay
03:02
well
03:02
lightspeed propagation delay
03:02
just the same as if you had 2 eyes focused on different things
03:02
so you have that showing the planet
03:02
and also
03:02
a mirror, pointing at the Destination end and looking through (edited)
03:02
so you can see Steve wave atyou
03:03
from Origin (edited)
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:03 AM
Let it suffice to say that I can see things happen as soon as their light reaches Destination.
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that works
03:03
so, you're standing next to Destination
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:03 AM
Through flatspace.
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you can see Steve
03:03
he waves at you, raises his laser pointer
03:03
and then shines it at Destination, via flatspace
03:04
you wait 1 year
03:04
and then via flatspace
03:04
you see Steve walk in, wave at the Origin wormhole, raise his laser pointer, and then you're blinded by the laser
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:04 AM
We're not going to include looking through the wormhole, because we don't yet know how that works.
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yes we do
03:04
its space
03:05
its literally a normal spacetime path
03:05
you can see through
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:05 AM
Information can only come through the wormhole in Steve-shaped packets.
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light goes through, atoms go through
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:05 AM
That is the only thing I can detect.
03:05
fine, we'll say the wormhole has a barrier on it that only permits Steve
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:06 AM
Because we're trying to understand how exactly wormholes work, and if we include wormholes we'll just be getting circular.
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okay, so steve presses the laser button, moves through Origin to Destination in 0 time, and then? (edited)
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:07 AM
So my timeline looks like this: T+0: Laser flash, Steve enters the wormhole at Origin T+1: Steve emerges from the wormhole at Destination, and immediately goes back T+?: Steve emerges from the wormhole at Destination
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"laser flash" being "he triggers the laser at his end" right?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:08 AM
yes
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as in, he basically presses the "shoot laser" button
03:08
alright
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:08 AM
The time between "shoot laser" and a flash emerging from the laser is taken to be zero.
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of course
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:09 AM
Okay, so we have a couple of possibilities.
03:09
Possibility 1: Temporal displacement is unsigned
03:10
Steve should emerge on Origin one year after the light from his departure from Destination gets there.
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that's impossible
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:11 AM
This corresponds to T+102 on my clock.
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well, it is possible, but its time travel
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:11 AM
No, he got there after his light.
03:11
It's fine.
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okay, so
03:11
hypothetically
03:11
Steve goes through
03:11
he opens a book
03:11
all in 0 time, of course
03:12
and he sees a year-old picture someone took of him via telescope, shooting his laser
03:12
plausible, right?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:12 AM
well to him it's 0 old
03:12
to the picture it's 1 old
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wait, sorry
03:12
i misread it
03:12
nevermind that
03:13
right, so if we have say
03:13
Steve's wife
03:13
and she's been sitting on Origin, watching him do this
03:13
he fires the laser
03:13
and she sees him go through
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:13 AM
Anyways, point is my clock describes his round trip as taking 102 years with unsigned displacement.
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yeah, she's waiting there for years
03:14
even though, to him, its instantaneous
03:14
wall clock time is non-zero on origin, despite it being zero for him
03:14
so what's the other option?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:15 AM
wait hol' up
03:15
it'd be 202 years
03:16
because the spatial displacement of 100ly
03:16
works both ways
03:17
Anyways, the other option is signed temporal displacement.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:18 AM
Steve arrives back on Origin 100+99 years after his light from Destination
03:18
And I see him emerge at T+300.
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so in more words
03:18
he shoots the laser, goes through Origin>Destination instantly
03:19
and then from his perspective, goes back Destination>Origin instantly
03:19
but, when he steps through, the picture someone who is sitting at Origin, took of him via telescope, is years old (edited)
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:20 AM
one year old
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one year old, got it
03:20
and that's the second option?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:21 AM
wait hold on
03:21
no that's the first option
03:21
Second option is that the picture sitting at Origin is 199 years old.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:22 AM
goddammit I need to start drawing pictures
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no, it's fine
03:22
text is good enough
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:22 AM
for myself V:
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no i'm just trying to figure it out
03:23
this isn't how i understand wormholes to work
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:23 AM
I'm at the limit of holding it in my brain, you see.
03:24
okay, what i don't get about this is
03:24
this isn't how, as far as i know
03:24
wormholes work. at all.
03:25
they aren't directional like that, they literally cannot have a time displacement like that
03:25
they're a path through space time, like just walking in a straight line on a planet's surface
03:25
it's just that you've manipulated space so that its not quite a normal-seeming 3 dimensional grid
03:26
you can see through a wormhole, you can toss a rope through and play tug-o-war with a friend on the other side
03:26
you can walk through, you can sit halfway in-halfway out and read a book
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:26 AM
okay so we will use the following case because it is easier for me to draw
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:26 AM
Origin is at displacement zero
03:27
Destination is at spatial displacement 10 and temporal displacement 9
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alright
03:33
maybe it would help to describe how time-displaced wormholes are actually made
03:33
by my understanding anyway
03:34
so, to start with
03:34
you create a wormhole pair, both at the same place
03:34
this includes the Origin end and the Destination end
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:35 AM
okay, I have a drawing
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alright
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:35 AM
I think I comprehend it properly now
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i think the problem is that we're calculating the displacement wrong
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:36 AM
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what do the two vertical lines represent?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:37 AM
Timelines for Destination and Origin, respectively.
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destination is the one on the left?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:39 AM
aye
03:39
hold on, missed a line
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is it top to bottom or bottom to top?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:40 AM
03:40
Bottom to top.
03:41
so steve shoots the laser, goes through, arrives a bit after the laser did
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:41 AM
yep
03:41
All events have timestamps.
03:41
(in their respective ref frames)
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he goes back, and in symmetrical he returns just after the reflected laser and himself are seen
03:42
i understand it, its the same as the previous example
03:42
what i don't get is
03:43
we know what a wormhole does and looks like, we've worked it out mathematically, we just don't know a way to make one because it needs things like negative energy density or such
03:43
it looks like this
03:43
as in it's a path
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:43 AM
oi how'd they get that render I want that engine
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:44 AM
A "true" two-way wormhole would be a straight horizontal line, but that's causally invalid without changing the topology of space to actually unify the two points.
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there's also a very pretty one in Interstellar which is physically accurate, and the fancy black hole is also mostly accurate
03:44
but wormholes have to be two way
03:44
that's mathematically how they work
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:45 AM
That's exactly how the wormholes in my setting work, but I've been told that doesn't work for some reason.
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you can't have a one way wormhole any more than you can have a region of space where light can only go one direction
03:45
it is literally a path
03:45
as in
03:45
imagine this
03:45
you have 2 scenarios
03:45
err
03:45
two locations
03:46
1: a area of normal flat space 2: a big wormhole
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:46 AM
Something about distances being defined by the time of a light path, and then things going weird if the distance changes because you modified the topology.
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you take your handy Ontotech mapping tool, and use it to measure the shape of space in flat space and in the wormhole
03:46
so basically
03:47
the measurement is a cylinder, and in flat space its just pointing wherever
03:47
and for the wormhole, it points straight in and out the other end
03:47
the readings are essentially identical
03:47
its a path. through. space.
03:48
it's just that you've twisted and warped space so that it's not quite a normal grid
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:48 AM
Yeah, and that makes sense.
03:49
But if that were how wormholes worked, you wouldn't have to worry about cycles in your wormhole network.
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but it is how wormholes work
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:50 AM
So why do wormholes in the Eldraeverse work differently?
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the math behind them is too complicated for me to do it all out, but it's basically in the definition of a wormhole as far as i can tell
03:50
Wormholes have been defined both geometrically and topologically.[further explanation needed] From a topological point of view, an intra-universe wormhole (a wormhole between two points in the same universe) is a compact region of spacetime whose boundary is topologically trivial, but whose interior is not simply connected.
03:50
"topologically trivial" but "not simply connected"
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:50 AM
Why do they have to care about causality if they're literally reducing distance?
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well its
03:51
"non simply connected"
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:51 AM
They don't, and therefore that's not what they're doing in the Eldraeverse.
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is the term they use there
03:51
oh
03:51
oh i see what you mean
03:51
i think
03:51
in the Eldraeverse, time travel is permitted, paradoxes are not
03:52
meaning you get stable time loops only pretty much
03:52
but, hmm
03:52
by my understanding
03:52
the entire empire is synced to one reference frame
03:53
as far as that makes sense with spatially distributed locations
03:53
so essentially, if a light pulse occurs from a starting point in the network
03:54
and its gated around and transmitted around carefully so that it basically passes through the stargates to all possible destinations the moment it reaches them
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 3:55 AM
Contrast the way wormholes work in, say, the Commonwealth Saga, wherein you can drive a literal train through them, and nobody cares one whit about causality because they actually connect space without regard for preserving existing distance measures (edited)
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i don't know enough about the Commonwealth Saga to know if its a faithful depiction of actual wormholes
03:56
so wait
03:56
lemme describe how wormholes work normally, to make sure we're on the same page
03:56
cause i'm still trying to work out the eldraeverse physics
03:56
so hypothetical wormhole used for travel is made like this:
03:57
1: you magic the two wormholes into existence, they're about two feet apart and fairly small
03:59
2: the 'time' between them is such that
03:59
if you stuck, say, a two ended laser pointer into it, and turned it on
04:00
A: if you had mirrors at both ends to shine light into a detector that's off to the side a bit, but the same distance from both, it would detect both laser pulses at the same time
04:01
B: if you looked into the laser pointer, you would see light from that end of it hit you after however long it takes light to travel that distance. The other end, reflecting off a mirror, would take however long it would take just a normal laser pointer with no wormhole to shine from that location, into the mirror, and across the room to your eye (edited)
04:02
("that location" as in the other end of the wormhole)
04:02
(the one you aren't standing at)
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:02 AM
uh huh…
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so, step 3: you have these two wormholes. You put one in a very slow rocket, and it flies away at arbitrarily slow speeds to minimize time dilation
04:03
so after its a light year away, if you step through to either end and shine a light through, it will take exactly one year to see it arrive
04:04
its the same situation as earlier, just at a greater distance
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:04 AM
okay, so it's an instant connection then?
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if you stand at either end and look at the other end, it appears to be X, the distance between them, in the past
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:05 AM
Way I see it, there are two kinds of wormhole:
04:05
(well, two kinds of FTL wormhole)
04:05
1. FTL, objectively
04:05
2. FTL, but only subjectively
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it depends on how you define FTL
04:06
spacelike FTL, not spacetimelike FTL
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:06 AM
The thing I was modeling a moment ago on paper? The second.
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by my understanding, both of those are definitionally impossible
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:07 AM
The thing I think you're talking about, and the thing exhibited in Commonwealth and my Ailevérse? The first.
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well, look at it this way
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:07 AM
In a type 1 wormhole, you change the minimum distance between things.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:08 AM
In a type 2 wormhole, you change only your perception, and cannot actually cross the gulf faster than light.
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its not
04:08
okay essentially
04:08
the spacetime path in the type 1 example i gave
04:09
it's not ftl
04:09
so both ends are spatially connected, right?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:09 AM
You had to redefine distances to do so.
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you can walk through, see through, throw a rope through, etc
04:09
if you're on either end, you can look in the sky and see the opposite end as it appears 1 year in the past
04:10
yes, you redefine distances
04:10
that's a wormhole
04:10
that's the definition of a wormhole
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:10 AM
You have to redefine minimum distances, which is I think where it causes problems.
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yes and no
04:11
well wait, okay, what's the problem
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:11 AM
I'm going to ping @Unknown since he's the main one who knows what the hell is going on with causally correct wormholes.
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wait, what's the problem though
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:12 AM
I don't fully understand the problems, which is why I'm trying to call for help V:
04:12
but wait, how do you know there's a problem then
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:12 AM
Actually if @Overmind happens to be on right now he probably knows too
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like if you can describe what you think might be sorta the problem, i might be able to realize what you mean
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:13 AM
Because I have been told "there are problems with this idea [paraphrased]"
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with type 1 wormholes?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:13 AM
aye
04:13
did they elaborate any on what sort of problem?
04:13
or just "a problem"
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:14 AM
Things like "distances from everything to everything else just changed and that's going to make things go weird"
04:14
this is in regards to your work, right? (edited)
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:14 AM
I brought it up in that context, yes, but it's not specific to my stuff.
04:15
okay i'm not familiar with your work
04:15
in short, if the guys in your universe want to make a wormhole for faster travel, what do they do?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:16 AM
Spacefolders just instantaneously make a wormhole appear that hardlinks space between two points (with some constraints on exactly which points).
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problem
04:16
found
04:16
you can't do that
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:16 AM
yes that too but
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:17 AM
Making things happen at a distance is forbidden, and I've made a faraway place become a near place while the faraway place was still faraway.
04:17
that is forbidden
04:17
you're correct
04:17
that's FTL travel; you basically just travelled back in time when you made that wormhole
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:18 AM
That's not the problem they were talking about, though.
04:18
well technically speaking, i'm not sure if it's strictly forbidden if it emerges in the future relative to you
04:18
but what was the problem they were talking about?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:19 AM
The "topology change means geometry change" one.
04:19
i.e. you've created a new, shorter path and now all distances have maybe changed
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i... think i understand what's going on there
04:19
i'm just not strictly sure if it's a thing that's forbidden or not
04:19
so, to use a picture
04:20
04:20
keeping in mind that this is just 2d space viewed in 3d
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:20 AM
right
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and in reality it's 3d in 4d
04:20
so what you're doing is taking a hole puncher to a normal flat strip of space, and then glueing the ends together
04:20
i am not personally aware of if that technically breaks any rules
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:20 AM
(and my setting has no lack of higher dimensions in which to embed these twisted volumes)
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provided you do not time travel with it
04:21
but it seems that they were saying that, yes, it breaks rules
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:21 AM
Just by using it in reverse you time travel with it!
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that's sort of the thing
04:21
i'm not aware of any realistic depiction of wormholes that does that
04:21
i'm not aware of how you could do that at all
04:22
i'm just saying i don't know for sure that its not allowed. It very well might be
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:22 AM
We just finished proving that it's either discontinuous or time travel.
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okay so i suppose it is impossible then
04:22
that, or it results in time travel
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:23 AM
Because our causality-supported cases resulted in dissimilar proper and coordinate time round trips.
04:23
i.e. discontinuous
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as i see it, it failed before that point
04:23
wormholes have to be space-like
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:24 AM
Our temporal offset was designed to mitigate that effect, but even with it it still fails.
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so the idea that he goes through and back and has any wall clock time pass at origin is impossible; he should be able to walk backwards and watch a wall clock
04:24
wormholes definitionally cannot function like that
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:24 AM
Light/cause going the same direction as him is fine.
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can't do that
04:25
not unless you can make one directional space
04:25
... which is basically a event horizon, now that i think about it (edited)
04:25
but that makes things worse, not better
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:26 AM
So the only thing to do is wormholes which time travel in at least one direction.
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no, my example still works
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:26 AM
If you want them to behave continuously and reversibly, they must have zero round trip times, in coordinate time
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correct
04:27
so take my example, for instance
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:27 AM
Which they cannot without either damaging causality or propogating cause themselves.
04:28
as far as i know, it doesn't
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:28 AM
When you go through one way, it's fine.
04:28
You get to Destination after your light, depending on config.
04:28
Then you go back to Origin.
04:28
Origin agrees that your trip was very short.
04:29
Meanwhile, the light from Destination, of your arrival at Destination, takes 10Y to cross flat space.
04:30
You've just arrived at Origin before your flatspace light.
04:30
Ergo, you must either consider wormhole light causally valid, or time travel.
04:31
you arrived before your light from one path got there
04:31
namely, one of the longer paths
04:31
you arrived after the light travelling through the wormhole got there
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:31 AM
It was the shortest path before your wormhole appeared.
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i think that's the crux of the issue
04:31
the wormhole does not appear
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:31 AM
That's what they're talking about.
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it can't appear
04:31
that is no bueno
04:32
the example I gave, where the two wormholes are made at the same location and one is flown away?
04:32
as far as i'm aware, that is necessary
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:32 AM
You have to create a shorter path if you want a continuous reversible non-time-travel wormhole.
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okay wait
04:32
let me describe my scenario
04:33
and then you can see what the problem is
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Je suis of ping @0111narwhalz
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so you make a wormhole pair in your lab. The start location and end location start at the exact same spot, and you push them apart.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:33 AM
Why do wormholes which actually change distance between endpoints cause problems?
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changing distance is non-issue
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:34 AM
(that was aimed at Sevoris)
04:34
but that's not the problem as i see it
04:34
you're trying to make wormholes without starting both ends at the same location
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:34 AM
If you have two things at the same position, now you have other problems.
04:35
Like "how do you tell the one from the other?"
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honestly i'm not sure of the intimate details of wormhole manufacture,
04:35
wormholes are weird and complicated, i have a conceptual understanding
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@0111narwhalz They might create a CTC.
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not a mathematical understanding good enough to hypothesize the way you'd makethem
04:36
i think its something about not... making them
04:36
but you inflate them from quantum foam?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:36 AM
Okay, but if they redefine distances they can't create a CTC.
04:37
Because as soon as distances are redefined, you don't have to time travel anymore.
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@0111narwhalz just listen to my example and the end result, and tell me where the issue is at the end
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Wormholes are multiple connected space-time geometries.
04:37
A wormhole always goes to a time coordinate also.
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you make the wormholes or inflate them or w/e. They're arbitrarily close. You push them apart, they're now a few feet apart. Timewise, they're separate so that if a event occurs at either end arbitrarily close (or inside) the mouth of it, you see it instantly at your end and X distance-time later at the other end
04:38
this is fine, as far as I'm aware. No casualty breaking, there's no way to send a message back in time here.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:38 AM
So is the issue that a path which includes a cycle through the wormhole [network] could reduce the distance?
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confused
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:39 AM
Because if distances are different but still unambiguous, what's the problem?
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lets say you take my example, and literally sit inside the mouths of the wormhole to make sure that absolutely no funny business goeson
04:39
and you keep moving them apart until they're, say, 1 light second apart
04:40
and you do it arbitrarily slowly so that they're no time dilation funny business
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:40 AM
Distances are defined by the time required for light to cross them, yes?
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now if you look at the other end and wiggle your foot, you see it happen 1 second after you do it via flatspace
04:40
keep pushing them apart until they're 10 light seconds, 1 light minute, 50 light years, w/e apart
04:40
the same holds true
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:41 AM
So if the light goes around a loop that reduces its overall travel time…
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as long as you don't muck it up via time dilation, light from any event on the other end takes X distance-time to reach you via flatspace and 0 time via the mouth
04:41
now tellme
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:42 AM
i.e. it hits before it is emitted
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@0111narwhalz invent a simple scenario here where a effect precedes cause
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:43 AM
Let's say you have a wormhole cycle which, because wormholes connect four-spacetime, has a negative travel time.
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wormhole cycle meaning multiple wormholes?
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CTC.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:43 AM
You go in A, come out B at T-1
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Virtual particle loop, blows up.
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wait wait
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:43 AM
Go back to A in .5 time
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no no, don't
04:43
don't add wormholes
04:44
that's a different picture
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Kerplow.
04:44
Kerplow, always kerplow.
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don't add wormholes, i'm working up to that
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:44 AM
if ever kerplow, always kerplow
04:44
okay so let's say Origin and Destination are 10LY apart in flatspace
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yep, you pushed them 10 ly apart
04:44
as described in the physically plausible scenario
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:45 AM
However, the D end is embedded 11 years in the past.
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no no no
04:45
no
04:45
no
04:45
don't
04:45
you can't just say that
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:45 AM
Then there should be no problems! V:
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time displacement doesn't make sense here so i'm trying to describe it by going piecemeal in the manner you'd actually make a wormhole
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:46 AM
Alternatively, the O end is embedded 11 years in the futureβ€”it doesn't matter which.
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if we just say "X exists" without understanding the situation properly it's perfectly possible that we'll unknowingly describe a impossible scenario
04:47
that's why i started with "they make it like THIS"
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:47 AM
The important fact is that O→D by wormhole, then D→O by flatspace, is faster than D→D by flatspace.
04:48
Such an arrangement will instantly explode.
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okay, you've described a impossible scenario
04:48
how about this:
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:48 AM
So why is it a problem if it's impossible?
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its a problem because we're trying to magic a hypothetical scenario which can't exist
04:49
so of course we look at the results and say "wait, what?"
04:49
that's why i'm trying very hard to work only with wormholes with a described physically possible origin
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:50 AM
If it's impossible, and doesn't happen, why is it problematic?
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well, we're trying to work out how wormholes work
04:50
and we're using a physically impossible scenario as a example
04:50
that's a problem in itself
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:51 AM
It's either possible or not a problem, and Sevoris seems to think the former.
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I mean, I can tell you what will happen if you present the geometry.
04:51
That is all I am doing.
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okay, how about my scenario
04:51
you make the wormholes or inflate them or w/e. They're arbitrarily close. You push them apart, they're now a few feet apart. Timewise, they're separate so that if a event occurs at either end arbitrarily close (or inside) the mouth of it, you see it instantly at your end and X distance-time later at the other end
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:52 AM
That one seems safe.
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i agree
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:52 AM
But what happens when time dilation of one endpoint gets involved?
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i'm getting to that
04:52
but you need to work with me here
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 4:53 AM
What does it mean for one end to be "older" than the other?
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to be confident of those answers, we need to describe how they occur
04:53
if we just say "okay, two wormholes exist and they're some distance apart with some sort of time separation"
04:53
we're probably going to end up picking values that are impossible and produce confusing results because we don't understand enough
04:54
so, here is how you make time-offset wormholes, piecemeal style
04:54
you start with your two close wormholes
04:54
you know this scenario is safe and causes no paradoxes
04:54
you glue one end to a really good spaceship, and then accelerate it away
04:55
so effectively instantaneously, it is moving fast enough away that there is 95% time dilation on the other end
04:55
the effective result of this is as follows
04:55
if you stick your hand through, nothing happens. The ship is all one reference frame, there's no silly sudden-aging fields or anything
04:56
if you step through to the spaceship and aim a telescope back at the origin, you see it slowed down by 20x
04:56
we know this because
04:57
if we have 2 photons leave the origin and travel to the ship, spaced 1 second apart according to the origin (edited)
04:57
err
04:57
fixed
04:57
the first photon will arrive after X time
04:58
the second photon will arrive at the same point in 1 second
04:58
at that one second mark, the space ship has moved .95 light seconds away
04:58
the photon moves the new .95 light seconds required, but the ship is now .95*.95 light seconds away
04:59
i'm fairly sure this ends up equaling 20, let me check
05:01
it does
05:01
05:02
so we have now confirmed that the origin appears slowed down 20x from the ship
05:02
and, similarly, the hypothetical destination planet is sped up
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:02 AM
wait though
05:02
it's not that simple
05:03
there's relativistic effects on the ship's proper time
05:03
you might be right
05:03
well wait
05:03
we know for a fact that the origin percieves the ship to be slowed 20x
05:04
and the ship percieves the origin to be slowed 20x
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:04 AM
05:04
per second
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we just showed that mathematically, either one looking at the other sees a (extremely redshifted) picture that moves at 1/20th speed
05:05
wait, what speed did you put in
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:05 AM
.95c
05:05
not .95c
05:05
0.Xc, such that time dilation equals 20
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:05 AM
oh
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which is uhhh
05:07
that's about 99.875% c
05:07
oh
05:07
wait
05:07
you're right
05:07
i didn't do it right, i assumed .95c part way through
05:07
shoot, that's why relativity is complicated
05:08
okay, i don't know all the math necessary to prove the time dilation
05:08
but we know you can have a space ship accelerated such that it experiences time dilation of 1/20th the speed of the origin
05:08
the question is how does a wormhole between the ship and origin work
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:09 AM
20 seconds coordinateβ€”which should be the time needed to catch up with a ship at .95cβ€”will be felt as 6.245 seconds on such a ship.
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theoretically, it should result in them sharing a reference frame
05:09
because a wormhole is a spacelike path
05:09
it wouldn't make sense to stick your hand through and it goes in slow motion
05:10
right?
05:10
and we know wormholes can move right?
05:10
so nothing says you can't put it on a ship and move it
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:10 AM
Observing the period of a distant object, like a pulsar, should give you an approximation of coordinate time.
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okay heres the thing
05:11
the ship is approaching the destination planet
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:11 AM
(assuming the look vector is orthogonal to the velocity)
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we know all the light in that path will hit the ship
05:12
so it will, certainly, observe the destination planet moving fast-forward, such that at least 100 years passes in however long the subjective journey takes
05:12
if its moving at 0.Xc, it will observe 100+100*0.X
05:12
err no
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:12 AM
From the ship, our coordinate time pulsar will pulse faster.
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100+100*(1-0.X)
05:13
correct
05:13
same with the planet
05:13
we're hitting the light faster so it appears sped up
05:13
(and blueshifted, but that's not relevant)
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:13 AM
Doppler and SR dilation are two distinct effects.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:14 AM
The words you're using sound like you're reasoning about SR in terms of Doppler.
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no, i just don't think its important to distinguish between "discrete photons arriving in sequence describing events, will appear to describe events at a faster pace when the same sequence is recieved in a smaller time frame" and "waves will have a higher wavelength"
05:16
err
05:16
shorter wavelength, my bad
05:16
and higher frequency
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:16 AM
Except one of those needs relativity and the other doesn't
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i don't think we need to get into that
05:17
we can demonstrate the scenario is plausible without the math
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:17 AM
So let's just say the ship is moving at a rate which makes it observe 20 pulses in the time Origin observes one.
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so we know the initial wormhole is plausible
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:17 AM
Because the pulsar isn't Doppler shifted.
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alright
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:18 AM
After one year of proper time, the ship has experienced 20 years of coordinate timeβ€”19 more than Origin.
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heres the thing
05:19
so we know the wormhole is possible
05:19
and we're pretty sure it can move, right?
05:19
and we're pretty sure you can put whatever sort of object you want around it, including a space ship
05:19
so that means you can put it on the space ship
05:19
and it doesn't make sense to, say
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:19 AM
That means that the ship transmits information from 19 years in the future, according to Origin.
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we'll get to that
05:20
i'm pretty sure i know what you mean
05:20
but the current situation of it moving away seems plausible, right?
05:20
and it will share a reference frame with origin, meanwhile
05:21
can this cause time travel?
05:21
well
05:21
say the ship is, instead
05:21
moving arbitrarily fast
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:21 AM
The ship doesn't have to travel in a straight line.
05:21
it does
05:21
for this scenario it does
05:21
i know where i'm heading here
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:21 AM
okay V:
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if we start moving it around we break things
05:22
just a straight line doesn't break anything no matter how fast it moves
05:22
worst case scenario, origin gets the next 100 years of light from destination in basically a instant
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:22 AM
[dubious]
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but that doesn't cause a paradox, because they still can't send a message back in time that way.
05:23
so in this scenario, the ship moves instantly to destination and then stops and does not move more
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:23 AM
Can you get high enough time dilation that your dilation outstrips your distance?
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not in a straight line, and i'm getting to that
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:23 AM
I think you can though
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the ship and origin share a reference frame
05:24
you can make the trip appear to be arbitrarily short, up to but not reaching instantaneous
05:24
and at best, you get the entire X distance of history of the planet
05:25
so lets say we're in that scenario where, by the origin's reference frame
05:25
the trip took one second
05:25
this, as i understand it, is still okay
05:25
if you walk through and shine a light at origin, it takes 1 second to arrive
05:26
you can't break time like this, there's still a delay, it's just very short
05:26
and if you shine a light from origin to destination, it takes...
05:26
200 years -1 second
05:26
now lets breakit
05:26
you take the wormhole, and inch it forward a little
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:27 AM
just spin it around really fastβ€”that's how I break things
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you inch it arbitrarily close to 1 light second forward
05:27
still fine, up until that exact moment
05:27
that you reach 1 light second
05:27
at that moment, you can shine a laser at origin and it arrives instantly
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:27 AM
At which point it cascades and explodes.
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correct
05:28
this is how wormholes work, as i understand it
05:28
the picture gets more complicated with multiple wormholes
05:28
but basically you can end up doing the same thing with a overall path that is too short through multiple wormholes, even if you move them at lesser speeds
05:29
because if instead of speed-mcqueening the single wormhole to the destination
05:29
we moved it arbitrarily slowly so there was no time dilation
05:29
then there's no issue
05:29
we could fly the wormhole right back, just as slowly, right to where we started
05:29
and no paradoxes
05:29
but if we just moved it out there, and made a new wormhole
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:29 AM
okay yeah with straight lines you asymptotically approach Bad Times cool
05:30
and with one wormhole if you just turn and stuff too much you can also break it
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:30 AM
so what about GR?
05:31
I guess the salient feature is "time delta / distance"
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:31 AM
So long as that stays below 1, you don't cascade.
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put it another way, from the perspective of the origin's reference frame
05:32
the wormhole ship is actually moving faster than light
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:32 AM
(where Ξ”t is unsigned)
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outward. specifically.
05:32
well
05:32
no, i misspoke
05:32
its not moving faster than light
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:33 AM
(because you can flip its sign just by going the other way)
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the entire universe appears to speed up
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:34 AM
Light always appears to move at the same speed, even if that requires that you change your perception of time.
05:34
hm
05:35
okay so let's say you get two wormholes then
05:35
How easy is it to accidentally make a negative cycle?
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it depends on the time dilation still
05:35
so if you move both arbitrarily slowly so there's no dilation ever
05:35
you can't break anything
05:36
you could move the first wormhole all the way out, and then make a new one at the destination and move it all the way back to where you started
05:36
another way to look at it is
05:36
from the perspective of the origin of the wormhole
05:37
the space ship lets you get a accelerated view of the universe
05:37
you point the ship at wherever and speed it up however fast you need
05:37
and you can fast-forward the entire universe infront of you as much as you want
05:37
and of course, the universe behind you slows down, and to the side its all normal
05:37
more-or-less
05:37
neat trick
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:38 AM
hmm
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and you might use it briefly and think "hey, what if i just fly away a little and then fast forward as much as I can to earth, maybe i can see the past"
05:38
well you can fast forward up to the exact moment you are currently percieving
05:38
if you do any more, it explodes
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:39 AM
Okay, so to analyze whether a given network will immediately explode, we'll need to get graph theory involved.
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yes, that is necessary i think
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:39 AM
Two kinds of edgesβ€”wormholes and flatspaceβ€”connect endpoints.
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iirc the main stable configuration of a wormhole network is a closed acyclic graph
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:40 AM
Wormhole edges are directed, flatspace edges are not.
05:40
(direction just determines the sign)
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:40 AM
Consider every cycle and find any with negative perimeter.
05:40
These will explode.
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pretty much, though i'm not a expert on graph theory
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Yeah, hence the need to have an acyclic graph, as described.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:42 AM
I believe this is an O(n!) algorithm.
05:42
Cycles can be formed with flatspace edges.
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And yeah, any end points or other holds need at least as much space separation as they have temporal delta.
05:43
A wormhole ten years to the future needs a mouth distance of at least 10 lightyears.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2019 5:45 AM
Two wormholes of whatever delta you want with whatever length you want, which are individually safe, can still form a dangerous cycle.
05:46
you can discard any paths with two consecutive flatspace edges
05:46
which should improve the scaling
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this is why using just wormholes for interstellar travel is regarded as "difficult, annoying, and limited"
05:50
as in, the option you use if you have no others
05:51
now, as for how the Eldrae make wormholes-on-demand
05:51
i'm not sure
05:52
my understanding is that the entire empire is sort of synced to the same reference frame
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I mean, they donβ€˜t really?
05:52
You need the entangled singularity core to spin a wormhole out of.
05:52
(Which basicaly already is a non-traversible wormhole.)
05:53
And to be honest, I donβ€˜t think youβ€˜d ever find wormholes per se really annoying for interstellar travel. The causal issues are honestly minor compared to topology stability issues and the energy bills of inflating and stabilizing them.
05:54
What sucks, then, is the acyclic tree configuration is pretty much the only way to go.
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that's the big limitation, yeah
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That creates backbone avenues and potentially chokes on traffic.
05:54
On the other hand, it creates backbone avenues that interstellar shipping can profit from a lot.
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also iirc wormholes gain/lose mass depending on mass flow direction
05:55
so if its one way you have to keep sending stuff through the other way to keep it balanced
05:55
though
05:55
wait
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And you donβ€˜t have to make a spider web, you can also make major jumps of hundreds and thousabds of lightyears and then grow a new cluster at the end point.
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iirc, the Eldrae gate-network isn't a closed cyclic graph
05:56
err
05:56
acyclic*
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And, if you actively exploit the time dilation, you can access remote locations in far shorter times.
05:56
Gain access to a star 200 lightyears away after a decade. (Your reference frame.)
05:56
@Buggy the stargate network has cyclical constructs in order.
05:57
The trick is how each system is shuffled accross the time base and stargate transfers have a certain flexibility, to avoid building CTCs.
05:58
Also, because stargates are open-on-demand, in theory any system is only multiply connected by one wormhole at any time.
05:58
So while there is a cyclical connection on paper, in practise the system shuffles connections to avoid actual loops.
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i'm just trying to think of how that works
06:00
so each gate is synced to the same reference frame...
06:00
the same-same
06:01
as in, they have ftl communcations with each other, the farthest gate is only some fraction of a second behind the innermost gate for instance
06:01
and that's only because of delays in the hardware itself i would guess
06:02
and any wormholes that are made are locked to this reference frame
06:02
but how does adding a system work
06:03
you accelerate the gate out, it experiences time dilation
06:04
hmm
06:04
i guess it might be okay, i feel like it should be breaking something there somewhere though
06:08
wait.
06:08
tangle is fucky
06:09
tangle is really fucky
06:09
it does not work like a wormhole
06:14
i... think... it has to somehow be immune to time dilation
06:16
for instance
06:19
Year Outside, Hour Inside: Thanks to relativity, truth in television for lighthugger crews, who slowly build up a hefty time differential (and cultural delta) with the parts of the universe operati…
06:19
so lighthuggers specifically experience time dilation relative to someone on the other end of a tangle channel
06:19
they don't share reference frames
06:20
i'm not sure how this works
06:22
if not that reference frame, then which?
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Some frame? 🀷
07:27
Itβ€˜s why I nail my causality harder to the wall for Apeiron Terminus, personally.
07:28
Plus I found you can actually have eFTL and all and still respect causality to a fair degree.
07:28
You just get new, emergent rules.
07:29
Well, "just".
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The 'verse wormholes don't work differently. The only difference is that they're using ER=EPR to piggyback on existing entanglement-induced wormholes per-trip rather than setting up permanent wormhole links. This lets you avoid the problems with cycles by never setting up simultaneous combinations that would cause cycles, which in turn lets you have a network that isn't a single-rooted tree.
11:10
Time-wise, there's nothing enforcing simultaneity on entanglement and so there's nothing enforcing simultaneity on the ends of the chosen inflation candidate - which is why the stargates spend a lot of time and computing power on time-sync to select candidates in which both ends match the empire time reference frame, irreducible drift notwithstanding.
11:12
This keeps the number of people experiencing causal loops and other such fun things down to a reasonable level, avoids having large chunks of the accessible galaxy in different time periods from each other, and most importantly, prevents the universe from smacking you with the big Strict Global Causality Enforcement Hammer.
11:18
The empire time reference frame is, at base, arbitrary. It's not a physical standard any more than, say, UTC is; it's there so all the various things (computers, law, stargates, appointment calendars, railway timetables, people's desire for an orderly universe, etc., etc.) that want monotonically increasing unidirectional time can have their yardstick. It's defined by consensus computation of the timebase beacons built into every stargate.
11:21
Under most circumstances not involving wormholes, FTL travel, relativistic speeds, or extreme gravity wells, you can count on wall-clock time (i.e., time passing locally) sticking close enough to empire time to be handled by imperceptibly slipping the clock the way that ntpd does.
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In other words, in boring situations
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(And tangle transmission is effectively instantaneous, but what you do at each end is, of course, affected by the local time dilation. So if you're cruising along at 0.9c with one end of the tangle channel, flipping bits at what (in your reference frame) is 9600 baud, your 43.59% time dilation relative to the end you left at home means that your signal is being received at the other end, in theirs, at 4,184 baud. In short, that's some painful netlag.)
11:30
((And, no, that's not a representative bandwidth for tangle channels.))
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That might be the one usecase where time smearing in an ntp-oid is not evil.
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Time base in AT is set by Sol (usually - thereβ€˜s some other time bases but Sol maintains a "monopoly" by simple ease of use) with time base coordination via XNAV.
12:20
With a database of space-time pulsar sources used to integrate space-time coordinates.
12:20
Basic pre-requisite for navigating your warp jumps. The rest is ye old fashioned highly precise atomic clock (edited)
12:21
Though integrating an XNAV solution can take quite a while. The more your unknowns the longer. Sometimes a solution can crunch for hours before the system finds your precise space-time coordinate.
12:24
(Though in that case you had a bad engage and your jump carried you off to somewhere way off the beaten track.)
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so lighthuggers specifically experience time dilation relative to someone on the other end of a tangle channel. They don't share reference frames. I'm not sure how this works. If not that reference frame, then which?
To solve that conundrum we have to consider what a wormhole fundamentally is, a wormhole can be defined as an object that is topologically trivial at its boundary but is not simply-connected on the inside. What does that means? It menas that a wormhole is a region of normal exterior spacetime curvature and a interior (the throat) that isn't simply connected. If something is not simply connected it doesn't just have one way to define distances on a geometric body (in GR the distance would be the spacetime interval / a distance in spacetime) but multiple. Its a bit like trying to measure distances on a sphere, but the sphere may actually be a torus in disguise and you could go through the sphere. Sending one wormhole mouth out means that through the throat both wormholes will continously share a reference as long as they are static (spacetime doesn't change. E.g they don't expand or collapse) and according to the "normal" metric (measuring the interval) they are in different reference frames with differently running clocks. Those two metrics are equally valid and allow you to send wormholes out slower than light according to the "normal" metric through the usual spacetime and effectively the wormhole reaching its destination through the wormhole spacetime metric. Special Relativity removes any special reference frames, all are equally valid. Wormholes in GR throws any sanity that is left out of the window by introducing the possibility that certain spacetime geometries can have different several reference frame according to a single observer.
17:59
Or more bluntly, the interior of a wormhole has its own unchanging reference frames that can be seen from both ends and be agreed upon. Even though the ends may not share a single frame of reference. (edited)
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i get that, it all makes sense. I'm just trying to figure out how ftl communication with tangle works.
18:13
is tangle one-way?
18:13
i mean obviously you could just carry 2 boxes of it, one per direction, if you needed 2-way comms
18:14
but is any particular single bit of tangle only capable of communicating in one direction, or two? (edited)
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the biggest issue i can think of with lighthuggers and tangle is... Say you have a lighthugger with a box of tangle. The tangle is connected to a planet it is about to depart from; the lighthugger is receiving a regular tone, and transmitting one as well, and while sitting in the port both tones have the same pitch
18:27
for the purposes of this experiment, neither the port nor the hugger can see any other reference frame; stars don't exist
18:29
the lighthugger accelerates away. They observe the tone to speed up as they accelerate, and back at the port the tone that they're receiving slows down. It would be trivial for both sides to record the tone they're getting, transmit the recorded frequency to either end, and objectively see which one has the higher frequency
18:31
so say we do a similar experiment, but instead of the lighthugger accelerating away the planet and the port on it accelerates away, unknowingly.
18:31
to their eyes and instruments, the situation appears normal... assuming someone's done some trickery so that they don't feel the acceleration, which is perfectly possible in-universe and in reality (edited)
18:32
but the tone reveals that while the lighthugger appears to be accelerating away, in reality the planet is accelerating away, because the tone they are receiving is objectively higher in pitch than the tone the lighthugger is receiving.
18:33
despite a complete lack of other reference frames
18:35
and how about another experiment; you have six lighthuggers, all of which accelerate away from the planet, two per cardinal
18:35
they all use the same tone system to find a objective measure of time dilation
18:35
and thus objective velocity
18:36
if the planet is stationary, then all lighthuggers will produce the same value
18:38
however, if the planet is moving, unknowingly, in a certain direction, then any lighthugger travelling in that direction will see the tone they're recieving slow down, and the tone the planet is receiving will speed up
18:38
as far as I can tell, tangle necessitates the existence of a true universal reference frame, a objective frame of zero velocity
18:40
and i... think that's not supposed to be a thing?
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Morgrim Moon 08/07/2019 6:46 PM
er, why? General Relativity is about relative velocity between two points, every lighthugger can record the planet moving at a different speed without any issues
18:48
and I think you may be confused on how the Doppler effect works? Ship is moving at high percent C. Planet looks at them. Planet see the occupants of the ship moving in slow motion. Ship looks and planet. Ship does NOT see the planet moving faster; they also see the planet moving in slow motion.
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but they do with tangle
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Morgrim Moon 08/07/2019 6:50 PM
do they?
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Year Outside, Hour Inside: Thanks to relativity, truth in television for lighthugger crews, who slowly build up a hefty time differential (and cultural delta) with the parts of the universe operati…
18:50
(And tangle transmission is effectively instantaneous, but what you do at each end is, of course, affected by the local time dilation. So if you're cruising along at 0.9c with one end of the tangle channel, flipping bits at what (in your reference frame) is 9600 baud, your 43.59% time dilation relative to the end you left at home means that your signal is being received at the other end, in theirs, at 4,184 baud. In short, that's some painful netlag.) ((And, no, that's not a representative bandwidth for tangle channels.)) from just above
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Morgrim Moon 08/07/2019 6:51 PM
yeah that's not saying anything about it being one way, the lag in the other direction is just as bad
18:51
hmm
18:51
good point, that would solve it
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What are those tangles even supposed to be?
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some manner of ontotech that enables one-time instantaneous transmission of a single bit per "tangle" particle used, regardless of distance
18:52
based on a non-local hidden variable interpretation of quantum mechanics
18:53
sort of like what a lot of people think quantum entanglement can be used for, except it isn't that and it actually works
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That just ask for tachyonic antitelephones.
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not familiar with that
18:54
i know of the concept of a tachyon, but 'antitelephone'?
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You call in the past with a antitelephone.
18:54
A tachyonic antitelephone is a hypothetical device in theoretical physics that could be used to send signals into one's own past. Albert Einstein in 1907 presented a thought experiment of how faster-than-light signals can lead to a paradox of causality, which was described by...
18:55
yeah, you cando that
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You can't really circumvent that issue, unless you reject SR and have special frames of reference.
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no time travel is permitted
18:55
people do it all the time
18:55
stable time loops are common, and are frequently used for manufacturing and computation as oracles (edited)
18:56
the problem is that is, iirc, the only kind of time travel permitted
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A stable time loop?
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example:
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The reason as to why time loops / CTC are unstable in the first place according to some hypotheses is because they are a time loop interacting with quantum fields.
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to solve some kinds of problems (a.k.a. make a turing oracle) they simply manufacture tangle and give one end of it a backwards time-offset, so that it transmits to itself in the past. They then put it in a machine which checks a recieved transmission to see if it's a solution to the given problem. If it is a solution, it re-transmits the solution to itself back in time. If it isn't a solution, it doesn't transmit anything or does some other thing that would cause a paradox And finally, it could malfunction, but they design it very carefully (edited)
18:59
paradoxes are forbidden, so it either produces the solution or breaks in a creative and exceedingly unlikely way, whichever is more likely
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They act as resonators that cause infinite energy densities within those time loops in literally zero time. Either time loops are by definition unstable or you handwave some reason as to why some are unstable.
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i thought that was only when there's a path that allows infinite replication of particles, real or virtual
19:00
so, any setup with a wormhole will cause that to occur
19:00
but tangle isn't a wormhole, it can only transmit a single bit. once. and then its unusable
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Any setup that has a time loop that is. Also what is that supposed to mean? Are "stable" time loops shielded by event horizons? Otherwise there are infinitely many paths that lead to resonance.
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i don't know, honestly
19:02
i've been working at figuring it out but i'm not the guy to ask
19:02
that'd be Cerebrate
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Don't 'verse-wormholes use entangled Kerr rings?
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only non-permanent ones
19:03
permanent wormholes can be made and function normally, it's just that no one bothers
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Kinda wasteful though.
19:07
Constantly spending positive and negative mass-energy just to avoid acylic network topology.
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i mean, the stargate itself needs a 'kernel' that weighs as much as a moon
19:09
so it's already not a cheap thing
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Morgrim Moon 08/07/2019 7:14 PM
spinning up micro wormholes is probably cheaper on the energy budget then keeping a larger wormhole throat open
19:15
because sure physics says wormholes can exist but they don't like staying that way
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Keeping a wormhole throat requires exactly zero input if all the mass-energy is placed where it is supposed to be and doesn't disperse or decay. Getting a wormhole up to a certain size costs the same amount of mass-energy and exotic matter no matter if you destroy it moments later or not.
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I've seen a few works where AIs grown on quantum computers can't be copied to new hardware. Is that sound science or a misunderstanding of the observer effect?
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It depends.
20:11
If the mind only uses quantum computing but stores data classically, then you should be able to copy it. But if its data can only be stored in the quantum states, you can’t. No-cloning theorem and all.
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Fortunately, despite Deepak Chopra's claims, the human brain operates at a level far above the quantum, right?
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sdschildberg 08/28/2019 8:22 PM
It does
20:23
Idea: AI woo
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Quantum-state AIs who decide meat-people don't have souls?
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sdschildberg 08/28/2019 8:27 PM
Who decide that only digitized mind states are souls
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Oh, and I've been hearing some claims that 5G signals will interfere with weather forecasting.
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Jade Nekotenshi 08/28/2019 9:59 PM
How?
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Apparently, use of the same frequencies to something or other.
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The frequency bands the USgov allocated for 5G are very close to the emission frequency of atmospheric water vapor, which is what various satellites use to measure the amount of it, and there’s concern that slopover will drown out the water signal.
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Jade Nekotenshi 08/29/2019 8:04 AM
Oh, that makes more sense.
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Aww, don’t rain on 5G’s parade.
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I think 5G is overhyped horribly anyway. LTE/4G is pretty fast anyway, the main limit for end users is data caps.
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I thought you was talking about acceleration, and I was very confused.
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Jade Nekotenshi 08/29/2019 5:21 PM
That and latency
17:22
I mean, the difference in reality between a 100Mbit and 1000Mbit connection is an order of magnitude, but it doesn't feel that major for a single end-user.
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Did nobody get my joke?
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I think that's just because modern sites haven't yet grown to fill the data cap of 5G
18:10
it's not like people are regularly re-downloading fortnite to their phones yet
18:10
Of course, as the Phone/Laptop line is blurred, we might see more raw game binary downloads over wireless (edited)
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sdschildberg 08/29/2019 6:14 PM
And game as service needs bandwith Though thats a LOT of data to pay for
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Jade Nekotenshi 08/30/2019 3:20 PM
I can't imagine game-as-a-service working particularly well on mobile, though - way, way too jittery unless you've got an uncommonly amazing connection
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BizarroLand ♀ 08/30/2019 3:55 PM
Personally I think game streaming is a rather stupid idea on its face just because of connection issues
15:56
I have 10Mbps and some games still lag
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That's really just an engineering problem though
16:16
does mean even normal steams have like a 2 second lag
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0111narwhalz 08/30/2019 4:18 PM
bandwidth is orthogonal to latency
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not entirely; increasing bandwidth via compression will tend to increase latency because compression and de-compression takes time
16:24
i think some streaming services such as Twitch have as much as a 20+ second delay in some cases because of compression
16:24
and not compressing it isn't a practical option; uncompressed video is ridiculously bulky
16:31
at 3 bytes per pixel, uncompressed 60fps 1080p would take about 373 MB per second
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0111narwhalz 08/30/2019 4:35 PM
Compression is a property of the data, not the connection.
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greyscale the colors for faster speed
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i mean it'd work. Going from 24 bit to 2 bit color is a reduction in size of like 96%
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0111narwhalz 08/30/2019 4:37 PM
mumbles something about semantic compression
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though, i think that 96% figure includes lossless compression
16:39
i was going off the wikipedia article, not the mathematical reduction in size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_depth
Color depth or colour depth (see spelling differences), also known as bit depth, is either the number of bits used to indicate the color of a single pixel, in a bitmapped image or video framebuffer, or the number of bits used for each color component of a single pixel. For co...
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On the "fibre" connection at home (VDSL to a nearby box advertised as fibre because BT) I get something like 25ms latency to Google DNS, which is less than two frames at 60Hz, so not that bad.
16:40
I think bandwidth might actually be more of an issue because video data is big.
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that's enough to be annoying with some action games, though
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Here in the UK something like 30Mbps is the common available internet connection speed outside of cities, which means a lot of compression and/or low framerate and/or resolution.
16:43
Modern wired display connectors need at least gigabytes per second. The latest version of DisplayPort goes up to 80Gbps...
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i'm not sure what the average connection speed is in america, but it's not a lot
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They have a bit of a monopolies problem I heard, though probably faster connections in some places.
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Further you get from the big cities the fewer options there are
16:45
Given how much digging you need to do to set up broadband
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Jade Nekotenshi 08/30/2019 6:40 PM
US average is pretty bad, but it's pulled down by really, really aggressively atrocious outliers in rural areas
18:40
Urban/suburban usually has higher-speed options available
18:40
I'm on nominally 1Gbps
18:40
Real throughput is around ~905 Mbps
18:40
(as measured by DSLreports tests)
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Jade Nekotenshi 08/30/2019 7:04 PM
But the catch is, I wouldn't have gotten nearly that with their provided router - only about 105 Mbps through that :/
19:04
which is still not bad, but...
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i'm honestly not sure what use those sorts of speeds are right now
19:05
i guess just high quality streaming?
19:05
youtube is optimized well enough that you don't need anywhere near that bandwidth, even for the rare extremely high quality video
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Jade Nekotenshi 08/30/2019 7:06 PM
That or large file transfers
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video games can be big, but they're usually not that big
19:06
i guess large file transfers is pretty much it right now
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Jade Nekotenshi 08/30/2019 7:06 PM
(I bought it because it's 2x the price for 100x the bandwidth, so why not?)
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fair enough, yeah
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Jade Nekotenshi 08/30/2019 7:07 PM
It is useful for connecting my friends' LANs to mine via VPN at LAN-like speeds.
19:08
Which is nice to let them borrow my music collection and vice versa, and other such somewhat nonstandard uses.
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yeah, it's got some uses but a lot of them are more technical or minor, not many things a average end-user would want
19:09
i think we've sort of hit a plateau where there's no major use for higher internet speeds until some other technology that needs it matures
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Jade Nekotenshi 08/30/2019 7:09 PM
True, but heatseekers always benefit from these things first πŸ˜›
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maybe if VR really takes off and starts incorporating other sensory elements somehow, higher bandwidth will become more necessary (edited)
19:11
that or the ever-popular vaporware that is 3d/holographic images
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Jade Nekotenshi 08/30/2019 7:11 PM
haha, true.
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streaming a point cloud is certainly gonna take up more bandwidth
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Jade Nekotenshi 08/30/2019 7:12 PM
me, I rather like having the capability, even when it's not immediately useful. Better to have and not need than vice versa, ne?
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sdschildberg 08/30/2019 7:12 PM
3d
What we need is cheap 3g/4g
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Jade Nekotenshi 08/30/2019 7:12 PM
Yes.
19:12
And better coverage, but I suspect coverage is less of an issue in Europe.
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yeah, better wireless long distance internet would be great
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Jade Nekotenshi 08/30/2019 7:13 PM
It certainly was when I lived there - even in 2006 there was almost nowhere that I didn't have 3g in the greater Naples area.
19:13
Come back to the US, and there were large swaths where I was lucky to have GPRS
19:14
And even today, while I have LTE almost anywhere I have a signal at all, there are still tons of areas with patchy, weak or no signal.
19:15
(such are the perils of having a ton of ground to cover, though. I expect it's probably similar in Canada and Australia for similar reasons)
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realization: with relativistic coilguns, Issac Newton isn't the deadliest son-of-a-bitch in space
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sdschildberg 09/07/2019 10:07 PM
Albert Einstein is
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well that
22:08
and also the origin of that quote is from mass effect, where a sergeant is drilling it into some recruits heads that you do not miss with a railgun, because you're making consequences for someone, somewhere the moment you shoot it
22:08
but now that i think about it, that's really not true
22:09
a vacuum isn't, unless you go into very, very deep space where there isn't anything to hit anyway
22:10
a tiny dust-grain projectile traveling at some ludicrous percent of the speed of light would face the exact same problem as relativistic space ships: heating and damage from collision with sparce gas (relatively) moving at a high fraction of c (edited)
22:11
so after some distance, you don't have a projectile anymore, but rather a cloud of ionized iron that is steadily expanding into harmlessness
22:12
by the time it gets to another solar system, I suspect that it'd expand so much that, if its even still moving at high velocity, it's nothing more than a blip on scintillation detectors. (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 09/07/2019 10:18 PM
true, but how many projectiles are DUST SIZED?
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fair point
22:18
ship-based railguns are bigger
22:18
i vaguely recall seeing a number somewhere for it, lemme see if i can find it
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Morgrim Moon 09/07/2019 10:19 PM
and the momentum equation isn't linear, so the greater the mass the much more resistant it is to being slowed by regular background stuffs
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it's not slowing which is the issue
22:21
it's heating
22:21
interstellar medium is low density, but it's still enough that you'll be colliding with hydrogen constantly
22:22
its around 1 atom per cm^3 iirc
22:22
if you're moving fast enough, that'll impart enough heat to melt and vaporize materials over time
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Morgrim Moon 09/07/2019 10:23 PM
a large enough mass is going to lose more heat to radiation than it'll gain from collisions
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but the question is, is that speed anywhere near the typical ship-mounted coilgun velocity
22:23
hmm, are you sure?
22:24
for a spherical projectile, surface area and cross section both increase by r^2
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Morgrim Moon 09/07/2019 10:24 PM
reasonably so for low percentages of c, I'm not sure about high percentages.
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i'm thinking of high percentages,yeah
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Morgrim Moon 09/07/2019 10:25 PM
but if high percentage c can be used as interplanetary projectiles then they means they're capable of moving through vastly denser inter-system space without much diversion
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its a bit of a matter of scale, though
22:26
there's 62k AU per light year
22:27
and finding figures for this stuff is tricky, but it seems like stellar medium is only around a order of magnitude more dense than interstellar medium
22:28
plus, even if the heating is enough to eventually melt and boil the projectile, it still starts off as not-boiled
22:29
and it would only have a few minutes to a few hours of travel time in-system
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oh. hmm.
22:45
this effect is much smaller than i anticipated.
22:46
it comes out to about 0.005 watts of heating per square centimeter of cross section in interstellar medium (which is actually around 0.1 particles per cm^3 locally) (edited)
22:47
meanwhile, a iron sphere would be radiating about 100-240 watts per cm^3 surface area while near its melting point (edited)
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some quick searching suggests that CMB would require just as ludicrous speeds to be a significant factor
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the details of the interaction are apparently more complex than this, but i found a study done on it https://arxiv.org/pdf/1608.05284.pdf
23:06
23:07
an equilibrium temperature of 300k at 0.8c... probably not melting, yeah
23:07
i suppose the real question is dust impacts
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Morgrim Moon 09/07/2019 11:07 PM
and gravitational interactions
23:08
it'll slowly slow down as stars deflect its orbit, I think?
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not significantly, i'd expect
23:12
if we're talking long distances, the projectile definitely won't survive long enough for that to become a factor
23:13
it'd hit a bit of interstellar dust large enough to vaporize the whole thing in one go eventually
23:18
(0.9c is way, way above the escape velocity for the galaxy anyway)
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after searching a bit more, i'm confident that erosion is still going to be a major factor, but calculating it is much much more complicated than just plain heating from collision with interstellar hydrogen
23:53
the research paper suggests that for a quartz projectile, you'd lose about 1mm of material per light year
23:53
at 0.2c
00:00
so at higher projectile velocities, i'd suspect that unless you have the misfortune to accidentally aim at a particularly close star, your mass drivers are practically shooting iron gas
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At, say, 3.6% c, your mass driver projectiles will still go a damn long way, dust or no dust.
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oh, that low
12:32
i thought we were talking >50%
12:33
yeah at 3.6% it's closer to a non issue
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0111narwhalz 09/09/2019 12:33 PM
Cerebrate appreciates all fractions of c!
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sadly, in the cutthroat world of combat, sometimes you really only want the higher fractions
12:34
truly, combat can bring out the worst in anyone
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It's not like you can't crank it up a bit, but in most cases, more dakka > bigger dakka.
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0111narwhalz 09/09/2019 12:34 PM
equal-opportunity accelerators
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i mean, i just figured bigger dakka was nice, because it makes light lag less of a issue, effectively increasing your maximum range
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(Usual at-this-particular-moment disclaimer.)
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a big projectile speed advantage over a opponent would be a huge advantage, because your ability to hit them improves much more quickly than their ability to hit you
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You get a better P(k) out of firing a spread.
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ah, fair enough
12:37
it's pretty situational either way, cause of factors like the limited d/v of both parties, thermal limitations, the whole mess that is infowar
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Especially bearing in mind that a lot of what long-range mass-driver fire is for is area denial, for which, simplistically, you can get more mileage out of 10x 3.6% c projectiles than you can out of 1x 36% c projectile.
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makes sense
12:37
actually, how well do active sensors pick up projectiles?
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Usually, very well. Ain't no stealth in space.
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this is true
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0111narwhalz 09/09/2019 12:38 PM
also when they come out they're hot
12:38
so that helps
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And the EM signature of a mass driver that can hit this sort of acccel isn't exactly subtle.
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though, now i'm imagining a sort of feint where you more-or-less herd your opponent in a predictable way using railgun fire, and then hit them with a specially made, rather harder to detect projectile
12:40
definitely complicated by the fact that you'd have to somehow pretend that you're shooting in a different direction when you fire it
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Jade Nekotenshi 09/09/2019 1:51 PM
CAPTOR-type statite mines, maybe?
13:51
But you couldn't really hide those either unless you have something substantial (a moon, say) to stuff them behind
13:52
And any sane opponent would probably make sure to sanitize the battlespace of anything like that.
13:52
I suppose you could maybe use railgun fire to herd, and hten use lasers or particle beams for the killshot
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MarcusAurelius 09/09/2019 2:43 PM
Maybe take advantage of already crowded space? Hide them among common communications and GPS say orbits
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Morgrim Moon 09/09/2019 7:13 PM
have the weapon be a 'miss' from earlier in the fight that's more a bus that is now lying in wait?
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would work, though it'd have to be a AKV or something, because it'd be hard to make a railgun round do that
23:56
experiencing the sort of acceleration necessary to put it at a fraction of C is a tad hard on anything sophisticated. Also, if it's not whizzing at, and then away from, the opponent at a fraction of C, it's going to look suspicious (edited)
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What's the best PD firing pattern given projectile speed, target speed, and reload rate?
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complicated.
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Well, I mean, yes, but has anyone done anything on that?
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various real-life militaries probably have, since anti-missile PD systems exist, but its probably very complicated and dependent on the PD platform, available sensors, and the attributes of anticipated projectiles
01:56
if you know for certain the path of the projectile, it can't change its path, and your PD is perfectly accurate, then a single shot on a simple intersect course is adequate
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Also depends heavily on what you're using for PD and how much processing power you have available.
01:58
And sensor resolution.
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it becomes much, much more complicated if: - you're aiming at projectiles that can accelerate - there's uncertainty in the accuracy of your sensor suite - your projectiles can accelerate - your PD systems are non-ideal (inaccurate, have aim-inertia [non-instantaneous aiming]) and more (edited)
01:58
usually, several of the above are true
01:58
also, ewar
01:58
also, as you said, processing limitations, etc
01:59
'complicated.' is a very good summary in any non-ideal situation
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The extremes being, as in the 'verse, the people with lots of processors and with a laser PD grid elegantly plinking projectiles out of the sky with perfectly targeted individual shots, and the people with... not... just blasting away with autocannon to fill the sky with lead and hopefully hitting anything that enters the kill zone.
02:00
(The latter is a terrible choice for PD, whose only virtue is that it is better than no PD. Slightly.)
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personally, i think i'd see if the ol' saturation attack works before that
02:01
nuclear shape charges are a wonderful thing, and you can't get hit by a relativistic slug if you turn it into a diffuse gas first
02:01
perhaps not a sustainable solution, but if you wanted sustainable you should've equipped your ship better.
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If you're resorting to that sort of thing (the autocannon model), you're in a sixth-rate navy and are just hoping to survive long enough to strike your colors. Preferably without doing anything that might make the enemy angry. (edited)
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... huh, i just had a thought
02:03
wouldn't the railgun equivalent of birdshot be nigh-impossible to intercept, except with vector panes?
02:04
you spread out the energy a lot, but it'll still hurt
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Depends on how much laser you have. Also, 'verse-wise, typical engagement range is a light-second, so a lot of that is going to miss if you put any spread on it at all, pretty much.
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Diffuse cloud of gas in it's path?
02:05
Or lasers. Probably lasers.
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actually, yeah, you're right
02:06
phased array optics can aim extremely quickly
02:07
and the energy required to vaporize each projectile falls rapidly with size, because the mass decreases and the relative rate of conduction within the projectile speeds up (or it becomes more vulnerable to fracturing from ablation of its surface. depends on the size.)
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Most of the time, an Imperial pd grid isn't trying to vaporize the projectile. All it has to do is boil off enough of its surface to generate a miss. Much easier.
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ah, clever
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Not that vaporization isn't an option , but why do more work than you have to - especially since work done is waste heat generated, and that pushes you closer to thermal limits.
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Because then you can say that you vaporise all that stand before you?
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You get to be happy with saying that they ran away when they saw you coming.
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Fair enough.
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eh, it's not as good a line as "They killed themselves when they saw me coming." https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2008-11-09
Daily strip for Sunday 9 November 2008
02:12
but pulling that off is probably pretty tricky
02:13
unless you have a black hole/neutron star nearby
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You get extra points for having scared off their bullets .
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ooh, true
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Morgrim Moon 09/13/2019 2:28 AM
Worldburner might be able to. And then be very upset because she wants a good scrap dammit
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Jade Nekotenshi 09/13/2019 9:30 AM
And if you are stuck with autocannon for point defense, there might actually be some merit in a mix of kinetic or HE-PD IR-guided rounds and VT-frag. But in space, that's a very 21st-century solution.
09:30
(Akin to what's done currently with some of the newer OTO Melara 76mm guns, alternating between LOSBR and VT-frag)
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Morgrim Moon 09/13/2019 9:31 AM
I am amused that a reasonable proportion of anti-radar frag is just glitter
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Jade Nekotenshi 09/13/2019 9:31 AM
Hahaha, yeah, it pretty much is πŸ™‚
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sdschildberg 09/13/2019 9:42 AM
But autoguns for pd at current setting is like running bolt actions at best and flintlocks at worst
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Jade Nekotenshi 09/13/2019 9:44 AM
Hence why I called it a "21st-century solution", though that was a bad metaphor given the relative time disconnect
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Plus, of course, throwing all that crap into the sky around you, you're just begging for a Sir Isaac Newton moment.
09:47
It's hard enough evading enemy fire without the rest of your squadron making the exclusion zones so much worse.
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Morgrim Moon 09/13/2019 9:49 AM
I'm imagining clean up fluff ships basically being tugs dragging a huge sheet of aerogel back and forth, "eating" and regenerating it as necessary
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Very much like that, yeah. I usually envision the fluffship proper being buried right in the middle of, or behind, the aerogel, on the grounds that it's not any more immune to Isaac Moments than anyone else.
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Morgrim Moon 09/13/2019 10:02 AM
I thought that might cripple the manueverability, given aerogel + your engine = a very bad day and because two ships with the stuff between them would be more nimble. But you're right, that would be a risky approach when you're first starting. Maybe better for the final passes where you're scrubbing up the last strays
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Yeah, you might want to run the engines by remote.
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0111narwhalz 09/13/2019 10:03 AM
Tiny core ship, big hoops of aerogel like a strap radiator.
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Looking like a chunk of pool noodle.
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Morgrim Moon 09/13/2019 10:04 AM
somewhere an Imperial engineer is lamenting how the burdens of function are forcing such a clunky inelegant form
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Here, have a relevant noodle incident: https://eldraeverse.com/2019/09/13/pyrrhic/
Belchar’s World, Battle of: The Battle of Belchar’s World – a term referring to Fourth Belchar’s, 6882 – while in most respects another of the minor squabbles endemic …
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Morgrim Moon 09/13/2019 10:53 AM
skybath meaning "we'll send you back to ground via the airlock"?
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In this case "We'll stake you out in the open and let the radiation kill you slowly."
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Morgrim Moon 09/13/2019 10:56 AM
yeah, I'd mutiny too
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(The Torgu Wilds are uncomfortably close to a stellar nursery, the spur that holds the Vile-Born Imperium especially so.)
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BizarroLand ♀ 09/13/2019 1:20 PM
I'm mildly jealous of your astrographical ability.
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@Overmind if you're a sixth rate navy, wouldn't you still think you have a chance against a mere fifth-rate navy? Like sure you can't take on an eldraeic battlegroup, or probably even the vonnies, but you can probably do something to, say, crummy pirates
14:13
Relatedly, why do they skypath their officers every time they lose a battle? Seems hard to keep any officers at that rate
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no, "skypath" is what they do to the navigators. Officers get the "skybath"
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Only if the pirates are also sixth-rate. Fortunately, most higher-tech pirates don't go out of their way to pick on sixth-rate navies due to the unlikelihood that they're protecting anything worth stealing.
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Is there a writeup of the different "rates" somewhere or is that a more off-the-cuff judgement?
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It's an off-the-cuff judgement of who-can-take-who in most engagements. The general opinion is that the IN, the PND (Photonic Network Defensives), and the NE (Naval Echelon, of the Consolidated Waserai Echelons) are the Worlds' acknowledged first-rate navies, with the League Navy at the top of the second-rate. Everything below that is furiously disputed, sometimes with weapons fire.
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Enderminion 09/19/2019 4:25 PM
how does NE and PND doctrine differ from IN Doctrine
16:25
aside from PND having better EWAR than god
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How many AUs are in a lightday?
17:07
Never mind, I found it
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BizarroLand ♀ 09/21/2019 8:26 PM
I do wonder what Imperial (Empire of the Star) organizations would do in that scenario
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Which scenario?
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I wonder what sort of compilers and programming languages exist in the Worlds. Also, what's a common word size for computers in the Empire?
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0111narwhalz 09/27/2019 1:39 AM
twelve
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john dougan(his grace/his grace) 09/27/2019 6:27 AM
27 trits in embedded hardware with low memory requirement (pure speculation)
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Probably not much greater than ours now, I suspect. The law of diminishing returns kicks in pretty fast with that one. So 64, maybe 128 bits. I'm tempted to say 128, on the grounds that that makes an IIP address fit neatly into four words.
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john dougan(his grace/his grace) 09/28/2019 2:50 PM
I thought I'd read somewhere they used trinary hardware (edited)
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I Dunno.
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are you thinking of Schlock Mercenary?
14:58
they use trinary as a sort of hardware-level "maybe" for AI logic
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How do you even do trinary logic gates?
14:59
like this apparently
14:59
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Now make an XOR :V
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this is the closest thing i could find
15:11
but apparently XOR is binary-exclusive, so it doesn't really make sense to say 'triniary XOR'
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There are probably weird ternary logic gates too.
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definitely
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Many more logic gates, some of which are useful.
15:12
There are something like... 16 stateless deterministic two-input binary logic gates, and maybe 81 or so ternary equivalents.
15:16
i thought that there was a much smaller number, and there were just more that are useful but technically can be described as combinations of lesser gates
15:17
infact the only ones that come to mind are "and" and "or" (edited)
15:17
oh, and "not" (edited)
15:17
can't forget "not" (edited)
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You can describe them as a 4-bit string IIRC.
15:18
Right, yes, there are four different inputs (0 and 0, 0 and 1, 1 and 0, 1 and 1) and each gate has a single output for each input pair.
15:18
OR is 0111, AND is 0001, XOR is 0110.
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makes sense, but why four bits?
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Because there are four possible input values.
15:19
Each of which has a defined binary output value.
15:20
oh i see, right, the bit string tells you what the output is for each possible input in order
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john dougan(his grace/his grace) 09/28/2019 3:20 PM
You can rewrite the operations in terms of other operations. Eg. All 16 can be implemented only using NAND gates
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i thought that the left half designated the input and the right half was something. Okay yeah thatmakes much more sense
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For ternary it would be a string of 9 trits, and quatenary 16... quits?
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so, there are 9 possible inputs for trit, and 3 possible outputs
15:23
so all trit gates can be described as a 9 trit string
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john dougan(his grace/his grace) 09/28/2019 3:23 PM
I think Knuth came up with a sane naming scheme
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so... 19683 possible gates
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Oh. Hmm.
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oh jeeze
15:23
and that's with a 2-trit input gate (edited)
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How are you getting 19683, actually?
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in practice/silicon, innately (not a combo of other gates) 3-input gates exist, so that makes it even more complicated
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john dougan(his grace/his grace) 09/28/2019 3:24 PM
3 ** 9
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well, its a 9 trit string
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Oh, right.
15:24
This is also only stateless deterministic gates.
15:25
Flash memory is also implemented in silicon and does nonvolatile storage using some black magic with a weird type of transistor.
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technically that's perfectly possible with a not-stateless gate
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SRAM cells need power constantly or they lose data.
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hmm, that's a good point
15:27
i'm not sure if ideal flip flops are volatile
15:27
if we treat "power off" as "every input is set to false" (edited)
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Flip-flop things not implemented on top of other gates would be stateful, wouldn't they?
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i'm assuming that there's a abstracted definition of stateful gates just like stateless gates, but i might be wrong there now that i think about it
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Enderminion 09/28/2019 4:11 PM
how is NAND different from OR?
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1110 for NAND vs 0111 for OR (edited)
16:12
NAND is on unless both inputs are true, OR is on unless both inputs are false
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The 128-bit word, naturally, is known as the banquyt.
πŸ€” 3
17:09
bit, slyce, nybble, byte, playte, dynner, feyst, banquyt
⬆ 3
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I have never heard anyone use slyce or, well, anything but bit, byte and occasionally nybble before.
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That would probably be because they are Too Silly.
17:17
And since the elder days of the original coinages, the profession has attracted the usual influx of people with sticks up their butts. (So cruel!)
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man, AIs must be notorious for eating a lot then
17:35
because they can go through a entire banquyt in the blink of a eye
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More details on IT architecture now in latest post.
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Morgrim Moon 09/28/2019 9:40 PM
I'd not heard the rest of those datameal puns
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MarcusAurelius 09/28/2019 9:59 PM
You can also think of the output string as the rightmost column of a truth table
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Jade Nekotenshi 09/28/2019 11:58 PM
I've heard "tayste" to refer to two bits before.
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spectral standard for K2V stars: Epsilon Eridani Epsilon Eridani luminosity: 0.34 Lβ˜‰ = 1.3×10^26 watts For simplicity's sake assuming the star is a point source and the planet a perfect sphere, percentage of irradiance received by a 4587 km radius body at a distance of 0.08 au (11967840 km) = area of the intersection of a sphere of 4587 km radius and a 0.08 au sphere (effectively a circular cross section) = 4587^2 x pi=66100897 square km / surface area of a 0.08 au sphere = 1799871137937577 square km = 0.00000003673 = 0.000003673% of total irradiance intercepted total solar influx on Andrár: 1.3x10^26 watts * 3.673x10^-8 = 4.7749x10^18 watts maximum efficiency of solar influx>electricity conversion ("thermodynamic efficiency limit"), unless you sit down and figure out how to tell thermodynamics to bugger off before continuing: 86% maximum electrical output: 0.86 x 4.7749x10^18 watts = 4.1064x10^18 watts Ignoring any further possible increases, because you're already capturing the majority of usable energy and playing silly buggers with stacked heat engines is only going to make things more difficult, and the temperature differential is going to fall a whole lot when you capture most of the influx like this.
20:41
this is about 10x the total illumination received by earth, full stop. Congratulations, you are a brand new Kardashev type-1 civilization and then some. Enjoy the 4 exawatts at your disposal
πŸ‘ 3
20:43
ask and ye shall recieve:
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4 exaJ/s
07:43
Wow
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A little less than that (Súnáris's luminosity is only 0.24β˜‰ per https://eldraeverse.com/2015/12/27/lumenna-sunaris-system-1-the-stars/ , although against that Andrár's a mite closer at 0.06 au), but still enough to liven up your day. πŸ™‚
(So post. Such computation. Wow.) Okay, folks, here we go, the Lumenna-Súnáris System. A little bit slower than expected, because it turns out that it actually takes quite a long time to gather up …
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Morgrim Moon 10/01/2019 7:55 AM
Let me check I'm visualising this correctly. There are two stars orbiting each other in distant binary formation. And each star has it's own set of orbiting planets?
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Yep.
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Morgrim Moon 10/01/2019 7:56 AM
Kinda surprised they're close enough to be the major seasonal affectant yet not mucking with each other's oort clouds. Or does that wrap around the lot?
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To put numbers to that, the most distant planet of either is Raziké, at 32.4 au from Lumenna, and the stellar separation is 242 au (eccentric - periastron is 125 au, apoastron is 358 au). (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 10/01/2019 8:00 AM
I'm looking up the Oort Cloud now and it's way further out than I thought
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The Oort cloud tends to start at around 2,000 au, so that just wraps around them both. The Kuiper belts, on the other hand, those brush up against each other at the outer edges.
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Morgrim Moon 10/01/2019 8:01 AM
so probably a higher rate of impacts than our solar system
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This leads to some weirdness like swapping objects back and forth at the peak of deep summer, and astronomers are placing bets on when their pet dwarf planet ( https://eldraeverse.com/2015/07/17/the-eleventh-planet/ ) is going to make the switch.
(In honor of current events, here, have a Pluto-analog…) They say one is the loneliest number, but eleven is the loneliest planet. Well, it’s not a planet as such. Múrcár is, galactographical…
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i just realized something rather amusing
05:34
with probability forge technology, bogo sort goes from being one of the worst sorting algorithms in existence to the best
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That's ... a little bit like using a nuke to light your barbecue, but okay?
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depends on how good probability forges are, i guess
05:36
if they're really reliable and you have some dire need to sort a horrendously large list that a local petaflop processor can't handle well...
05:36
probably never practical, but i'd be disappointed if no one did it at least once just to say that they could
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bogo?
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0111narwhalz 11/11/2019 9:16 AM
bogus
09:16
bogosort being the following algorithm: 1. Check if the set is sorted 2. If it isn't, randomize it 3. GOTO 1
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sdschildberg 11/11/2019 9:17 AM
Someone, somewhere has managed to bogo sort a large set just to show off
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0111narwhalz 11/11/2019 9:17 AM
time complexity is O(n!)
09:18
so nobody's sorted a very large set, no
09:18
at least not repeatably
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Well, you could use aleamutative technologies to make bogosort work, just as you could use them to cheat at craps, but not only have you invented a way to use a nuke to light your barbecue, but the nuke in question is encased in solid iridium, studded with precious gemstones, stuffed in an antique vase, and padded with high-denomination bearer bonds. Whoever's in charge of your budget will have certain words to exchange with you.
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Sounds like a flashy way to buy back shares, honestly
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As a side note, it could probably even make quantum sort work. For those unfamiliar with quantum sort, the algorithm goes like this: 10 If the set is sorted, exit. 20 GOTO 10. (Eventually enough random quantum tunnelling events will happen to sort the list.) This one is O(∞).
13:12
As a side note, don't try this if you're using a typical pseudorandom number generator. You need Real True Randomness, or else your probability manipulation won't have anything to work on; PRNGs are deterministic.
13:13
Actually, you need local Real True Randomness. Taking the usual shortcut and buying in blocks of random from Practical Noise, ICC, won't work either.
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0111narwhalz 11/12/2019 1:37 PM
goddamn I love your corp names :V
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BizarroLand ♀ 11/12/2019 2:10 PM
I just learned about big O notation
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0111narwhalz 11/12/2019 2:11 PM
I thought quantum sort was the one where you induce a paradox if the list isn't sorted after a random transformation.
14:11
Consistency protection being what it is, it must therefore be sorted.
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Whenever i do corp names they trend towards the spooky
15:29
Stepson Solutions Soul In The Blood Biotech
15:30
Had a group of players in a game i run found as their front organization: Anodyne Telluric Communications
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0111narwhalz 11/12/2019 3:30 PM
I'm just bad at names
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"induce a paradox if the list isn't sorted" is how a probability forge works
17:29
its basically has a box that has a one-way data link to itself in the past. You turn it on, and it receives a "all good" signal, or a solution to a problem that can be checked, etc. If things aren't as they should be in the future, it refuses to send that signal back in time
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That is an incredibly stupid idea
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not at all
17:30
a paradox doesn't break things
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Necessarily
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no, a paradox literally can't occur
17:30
if something would induce a paradox, it doesn't happen
17:31
that means that if the box is reliable enough (because the other option is that it malfunctions and sends back the signal anyway) you can force horrendously unlikely events to happen
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It also breaks causality
17:32
Which I've heard is a big no-no
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it doesn't, though.
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but does it do it casually? I’ll see myself out now.
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the whole concern about breaking casuality is discovering something new that breaks it
17:33
devices like this, and other known forms of time travel, are all casualty-preserving stable time loops
17:33
RESPLENDENT EXPONENTIAL VECTOR PROJECT EXECUTION COMMITTEE PROJECT PROPOSAL 6200/X/113 – β€œPROBABILITY KILN” SUMMARY: A proposal to make use of moiric-temporal mechanics for engineering functions. I…
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Doesn't the Eldraeverse run on a block universe?
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stable time loops are still block
17:35
just... rather twisty block
17:35
events all have causes, you just swap them around abit
17:37
It is widely believed that time travel is useless. After all, everyone knows the Block Universe Theory and its limitations: changing the past is impossible, and as such all grandfather paradoxes ar…
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For some reason I am reminded of the Vonnie plan to use a cosmic string/Precursor artifact to go back in time and prevent the Empire from ever forming, which, as I recall, failed horribly.
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i don't recall that as being a plot point
17:38
unless it was in one of the books, which i haven't gotten yet
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In one of the books
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During the Core War, I think
17:39
@Overmind correct me if I'm wrong
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in fairness, the Vonnies are not known for good/physically possible ideas
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It's a plot point that a vonnie force was moving in the area where a precursor artifact that would be useful was
17:47
I don't think the vonnies actually went for it
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Ah (edited)
17:47
So they still failed horribly, but in a different way :V
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the only plot point i'm aware of from the Core War is that the Vonnies made a big play to reach a black hole in Imperial space
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smh just make a kugelblitz like everyone else noobs
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because they thought that was where the Imperials had their wormhole mine hidden, only to realize that, unlike the vonnies, the Imperials aren't idiots who harvest wormholes from the infectious remains of dead Gods
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The Vonnies are performing the Rite of AshkEnte with all the pentagrams and dribbly candles and mumbo-jumbo, the Imperials use three pieces of wood and four CCs of mouse blood.
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OMG
18:44
The Vonnies are the Unseen University faculty
18:44
This made my day
18:44
πŸ˜„
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The β€œsit around eating cheese trays” faculty at least.
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Morgrim Moon 11/12/2019 6:48 PM
nah, when the UU faculty decide something needs doing they're actually highly competent
18:49
or at least Ridcully is and tows everyone else along with him
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Let's be honest
18:50
Ponder Stibbons is the hero Discworld needs
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Ridcully is an outsider, remember?
18:51
The old guard are still of the opinion that the University’s purpose is to keep wizards from using magic, not to fiddle with it.
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Morgrim Moon 11/12/2019 6:55 PM
I did like the moment where it has been set up that wizardry is lots of faffing around and ritual for frequently minor results and that Great Works require months of planning... and then Ridcully loses his temper, waves his hand, and sets the wall on fire while commenting that yes it does. For an apprentice.
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See, the great thing about not being able to violate causality is being able to use the universe's response to attempted causality violations to trick it into doing things for you. Starting with hyperstannic computation and moving up from there. @KAL_9000 Yeah, the notion that they were going for the Spindle was just speculation by the sender of that message. The Republic wouldn't have gone for that sort of time-manipulation plot even if it was possible - like any good bunch of baseline normies, they don't believe in screwing around with the timeline. (edited)
00:37
Also, they're perfectly aware of the Unspoken Agreement on Temporal Integrity, namely that inasmuch as causality-altering time travel is tantamount to omnicide, anyone who even considers thinking about going there is going to make a lot of people very angry and indiscriminate with the contents of the Otherwise Forbidden Weapons cabinet.
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what is the String, anyway?
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The Spindle?
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err, whoops
01:03
yeah
01:03
got it mixed up because he said it was a cosmic string or similar
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Someone's attempt to build a Tipler time machine, or maybe an extrauniversal gateway, or possibly some sort of brane beacon. (Didn't work. Probably. It's hard to tell because closing on an third-million-mile-long exotic matter cylinder spinning at 0.96 c and vomiting gravitational waves at you is mighty hard on pretty much anything you might use to find out.)
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one would hope, certainly
01:10
if it just produces CTCs, well there are lots easier ways to do that. If it doesn't, then it's rather concerning what with all the photons and such that it might be hucking into the past
01:14
and if it does produce CTCs, you shouldn't get to close because someone might figure out that the Transcend used it to contact/upload Seeress Merriéle
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What are CTCs?
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sdschildberg 11/13/2019 7:24 AM
Closed Timelike Curves @Buggy her ascension did look an awful lot like the biggest sized bugout transmission
13:41
straight-line FTL exists... iiin a few hundred years, but it does
13:42
plan "fly a few thousand light years out and point one hell of a telescope at our home planet" is an option
13:42
with the right telescope, they might be able to get a brain scan
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0111narwhalz 11/13/2019 1:43 PM
that sounds like the most ridiculous superabsurd telescope ever
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BizarroLand ♀ 11/13/2019 1:43 PM
so basically if you have a second fly with FTL to the Galactic Rim, have them take a super array telescope and point it at your head, they will see you and confirm the timeline where you survive
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inferometry is OP
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BizarroLand ♀ 11/13/2019 1:43 PM
smells of BS
13:43
not the interferometry part
13:43
the part where you're still necessarily there
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i mean you can already pull timeline hijinks like that
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BizarroLand ♀ 11/13/2019 1:44 PM
what
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It is widely believed that time travel is useless. After all, everyone knows the Block Universe Theory and its limitations: changing the past is impossible, and as such all grandfather paradoxes ar…
13:44
tl;dr "We built a keep-this-from-being-destroyed time travel widget that works so well that it's effectively a stasis field"
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BizarroLand ♀ 11/13/2019 1:45 PM
but I suspect what would really happen is they would fly out and take a picture of ancient photons more likely
13:46
the more I hear about this timeline CTC the more I'm glad my setting jettisons relativity altogether
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admittedly i don't quite get how FTL stargates, and block-universe-CTCs-only quiiite works
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Time travel seems pretty hard to reason about for our operating-in-linear-time brains.
14:18
plus there's the whole...
14:18
synchronizes-reference-frames-except-ignoring-time-dilation thing
14:19
which is contrary to how mergeing reference frames works normally, where it merges them, full stop, time dilation or not
14:20
like, example:
14:21
you make a normal wormhole, stick one end on a lighthugger and the other on a planet
14:21
it merges the reference frames. You don't look through and see things on the lighthugger going in slow motion
14:21
but, take a 2-way tangle channel, put one on the lighthugger and the other on a planet, and the video feed from the lighthugger will be slow motion
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The fun part is: these technologies are based on an actual physical theory of consistency protection. Fortunately, the universe doesn't seem to want to hand out CTCs, but if it ever does ... enjoy these implications.
14:28
i wonder what happens if
14:29
you put a wormhole on the lighthugger and a tangle channel
14:30
tangle communication does, wormholes don't
14:31
uhm
14:31
some things got deleted i think
14:31
you deleted your message and one of mine -.-
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Just mine. Yours appear to all still be here.
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oh, might be weirdness on my end
14:33
so what i'm thinking is either
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0111narwhalz 11/13/2019 2:33 PM
I see seven messages from Buggy between Cerebrate's "the fun part is […]" and "just mine"
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yeah, i thought i sent one more but maybe i accidentally deleted it in my haste to reply
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Also, you may run into problems putting a wormhole on a lighthugger fast enough to experience heavy time dilation.
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so what i'm thinking is: 1: the tangle channel inexplicably speeds up 2: the wormhole inexplicably becomes slo-mo 3: the tangle channel and wormhole both go at normal speed, and the entire reference frame of the planet slows down for some reason 4: the wormhole is normal speed, the tangle channel is slowmo, people on both the ship and planet are baffled as the tangle channel is transmitting messages from the 'past'
14:36
4 seems most likely
14:36
the wormhole in this case effectively gets you information from the "future" of the lighthugger. i think.
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0111narwhalz 11/13/2019 2:37 PM
5: the wormhole explodes or the tangle corrupts
14:37
:V
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Both space-like and time-like contraction tend to play merry hell with wormhole stabilization.
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0111narwhalz 11/13/2019 2:38 PM
Oh, I thought you were going to bring up the fact that wormholes need kernels, and that poses an interesting engineering problem.
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i honestly don't know quite enough about the subject to know for sure, but i... think GR allows for wormholes to move arbitrarily?
14:39
and stabilization is more of a "okay, theoretically it can move at any speed, but something has to stabilize this thing in practice"
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Stargate-type wormhole generators need kernels.
14:39
static wormholes don't, but they come with their own host of limitations
14:39
also theoretically, this experiment doesn't need high velocities
14:39
at all
14:40
orbital velocities could be enough to demonstrate the point
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0111narwhalz 11/13/2019 2:40 PM
just go into the deep place
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just like how we can demonstrate time dilation with GPS satellites
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0111narwhalz 11/13/2019 2:40 PM
GR dilation
14:40
instead of SR
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i'm not sure being next to a black hole is better for wormhole stability
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0111narwhalz 11/13/2019 2:41 PM
it'll be fiiiine
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Anyway, bear in mind that, for example, drift when making a stargate jump happens in a four-sphere, not a three-sphere, so starships arriving out of order is routine. So is message packets arriving out of order.
14:41
Temporal weirdness is just part of daily life. (edited)
14:42
(And on that note, I must step away for a while,)
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i guess that'd be a way to make a CTC
14:43
if you have a 2 way tangle channel, your messages are being recieved in the same reference frame as they're being sent from
14:43
which is in the past according to the lighthugger crew you can see standing a few feet away in that wormhole door
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0111narwhalz 11/13/2019 2:44 PM
…Are tangle channels two-way?
14:44
but two one way tangle boxes duct-taped together are.
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0111narwhalz 11/13/2019 2:45 PM
Sure, but the TX and RX are still separate operations.
14:45
So there's no particular obligation for them to be in lockstep.
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i think they would be, though
14:45
at least, they are by authorial fiat
14:46
Year Outside, Hour Inside: Thanks to relativity, truth in television for lighthugger crews, who slowly build up a hefty time differential (and cultural delta) with the parts of the universe operati…
14:46
…also, give up on playing MMOs or multiplayer games with anyone off the ship, no matter how much tangle you brought. Timeslip is much worse than netlag.)
14:46
hmm, in retrospect
14:46
not sure if "timeslip" is time dilation or non-lockstep hijinks
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BizarroLand ♀ 11/13/2019 3:34 PM
The time dilation doesn't get truly ridiculous until you're above 0.999c
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0111narwhalz 11/13/2019 3:39 PM
I placed the cruise limit in the Ailevérse at .2c because +2% seemed like a good cutoff for "I don't want to write about time dilation"
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Jade Nekotenshi 11/13/2019 3:46 PM
My dodge in Rising Star was basically that FTL turns out to be a lot easier than relativistic STL, so it doesn't come up all that often. Haven't decided what I'll do when it does.
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0111narwhalz 11/13/2019 3:47 PM
Two of my FTL techs depend on STL velocity, which is interesting :V
15:47
(they're effectively two different kinds of velocity multipliers)
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BizarroLand ♀ 11/13/2019 4:13 PM
@Jade Nekotenshi same
16:13
except in theory you can accelerate to 20%c with the standard drive and
16:13
well, I can just say no one ever feels the need to go that fast
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something something, where did all the speed demons go
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The Maneo Jung-Espinoza effect?
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BizarroLand ♀ 11/13/2019 4:44 PM
It's more like, once you can accelerate to 500 km/s without using more than a third of your fuel you're not really saving any time going faster over interplanetary distances
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yeah but
16:46
what if i want go fast
16:46
because f a s t
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BizarroLand ♀ 11/13/2019 4:48 PM
enjoy shooting out into the deep black beyond infrastructure and any hope of rescue
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BizarroLand ♀ 11/13/2019 4:52 PM
there might be ultra-deep-black stations in case there's a stray planet nine-straggler in a system
16:52
but that's probably it, most Tiffs will never bother going beyond the outer system boundary if they travel in space
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Morgrim Moon 11/13/2019 6:07 PM
there's plausibly "tech will allow you to go this fast, but you'd better head to inter-galactic space first because tech won't save you from the high speed collisions with space-anything"
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0111narwhalz 11/13/2019 6:08 PM
if interplanetary medium is less dense than interstellar medium, is intergalactic medium more dense still?
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Morgrim Moon 11/13/2019 6:10 PM
I thought intergalactic medium was less dense than either?
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0111narwhalz 11/13/2019 6:11 PM
dunno
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Morgrim Moon 11/13/2019 6:13 PM
my thoughts were that if you want to set a land speed record here, you NEED a salt flat; nothing else works as suitably even and even then people kill themselves on teeny imperfections frequently. If you wanted a 'cap' on max percentage of c in a setting without mucking around with physics, this is an easy way of doing it
04:12
now that i think about it, doesn't paracasuality mean that Practical Noise, ICC, should be getting all of its noise straight from sophs?
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well, very high quality noise anyway. Lower quality noise is probably cheaper to get from more conventional sources
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Er, that would make it less random.
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i'm thinking, theoretically you can compromise most sources of noise somehow
06:45
but volition is definitionally not predictable in any way
06:45
so it's potentially a higher quality source of noise
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Morgrim Moon 11/18/2019 6:45 AM
um. I disagree. Volition is not CONTROLLABLE, but it is frequently PREDICTABLE
πŸ‘† 3
06:45
that's how game theory works
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i thought the whole thing about it was that it's neither deterministic nor probabilistic
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It isn't. But sophs are, to a certain degree, consistent.
06:47
And regardless, what it is also definitely not is random .
06:48
(People make terrible RNGs.)
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actually, now that i think about it
06:50
the same methods that could practically compromise random noise would work on People-RNG anyway
06:51
and you're right, i've been thinking that there must be some way to get better noise out of it (combining smaller details like exact timing or such)
06:52
but even if there is, something like a CTC-noise-denoiser is still going to work with volition-noise, because you can't volition your way out of a CTC
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Morgrim Moon 11/18/2019 7:26 AM
"That’s actually a notable example of Paul Dirac being completely wrong about something in physics – he had stated back in 1929 (PDF here if you’re up for it!) that relativistic corrections to quantum mechanics were of β€œno importance” because they would apply only to very high-speed particles (that is, those moving at an appreciable fraction of the speed of light). But as it turns out, the inner electrons of the heavier elements are moving at such speeds (they get faster as the positively charged nucleus gets bigger and more charged), and this has effects out to the chemically important outer electrons as well. For one thing, relativistic particles are heavier, and this actually shrinks the atomic radius of the heavier elements still more and has complex effects on the various orbitals." as a crude example, relativistic effects in electron orbitals are why mercury is liquid at room temperature, when by newtonian physics it shouldn't melt until 82C
07:28
(this was suspected in the 1960-70s but not confirmed until 2013. Because when you are dealing with a complicated system involving 80 different objects whizzing around at relativistic speeds and interacting along the way, the equations require a beefy supercomputer to prove your maths matches reality)
07:32
...okay, so only the s & p orbitals hit relativistic speeds. That's still 8 of the things just in the outer shell
07:33
also gold is golden instead of silvery because of the same relativistic quantum chemisty
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Jade Nekotenshi 11/18/2019 8:34 AM
That accounts for the color of cesium and copper too, IIRC
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Morgrim Moon 11/18/2019 8:35 AM
caesium yes, I'm less certain about copper
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Shouldn't it account for the color of -all- elements though?
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0111narwhalz 11/18/2019 2:24 PM
To some extent, but I presume most of the time the gamma factor is negligibly small.
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Morgrim Moon 11/18/2019 6:13 PM
yeah. Most metallics a low shift that keeps the absorption firmly in the UV range. Gold and caesium are the ones with high shift that pushes it to visible violet
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@Overmind how does paracausality even work
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A slew of oddly orbiting objects indicates a massive planet is hiding in the outer solar system. But one group of astronomers says it might be a tiny black hole instead.
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I'd dare someone you play baseball with it.
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0111narwhalz 11/23/2019 12:01 PM
That's 11 Earths, about 1.8mK.
12:02
You definitely wouldn't see it on thermals unless it started eating something.
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It would certainly be much more interesting to have a primordial black hole within a stone's toss instead of another, well, big icy stone.
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oh finally
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??
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i've been looking for something to help calculate what happens when a railgun shoots in-atmo
23:24
but i couldn't figure it out because its a weird intersection that doesn't come up much
23:24
but Randal (guy behind XKCD) used this to infer the physics of relativistic meteors, so it can do that... apparently. Somewhere in there.
23:25
I just have to find it
23:26
i'll take a look at it a bit later, though
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Jade Nekotenshi 12/05/2019 8:16 AM
I mean, this depends on just how fast your railgun slug is.
08:17
You'll get a lot of the relativistic-baseball stuff if you throw a milligram of stuff at 0.65c, but not if you throw 65kg of stuff at Mach 9, say.
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BluejayHurricane 12/13/2019 1:58 AM
How many syllables are the curses in β€˜verse? Because I was thinking, and most common English ones are monosyllabic.
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Morgrim Moon 12/13/2019 2:05 AM
I think there's a translation for "shit, waste heat and entropy!" which seems to be a commonly used curse
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so i've been thinking about how vector tech works
12:09
there are a couple of notable examples of it that i'm aware of; there's artifical gravity/inertial/thrust dampening, pusher/puller beams, incredibly-energy-intensive pseudo-reactionless drives, and eldraeic techlekinesis which uses a phased array of cellular vector control elements
12:15
artifical gravity requires 2 nodes to define a area for the field to affect. pusher/puller beams just need one node (a given example is a puller 'grappling beam', which obviously wouldn't work if you had to stick a node on the other end), and they push/pull towards or away from the unit in a straight line. reactionless drives require only a single node, and push/pull off of 'effectively the entire universe', which is undetectable but the associated equal and opposite reaction is useful. eldraeic techlekinesis can produce more-or-less arbitrary fields with any remaining net force applied to their body, as seen by the ability to effectively use it for everything you could use actual telekinesis for.
12:16
to summarize, we have: 2 nodes producing a field between them, single nodes producing a line, single nodes creating a unbounded field, and many many nodes producing arbitrary fields
12:17
what i wonder is, what are the finer details of how many nodes are required, and why aren't phased arrays used more often?
12:18
a tractor/pusher beam necessarily has to be, in actuality, a cylinder that extends into whatever is being pushed/pulled, otherwise you get shennanigans with applying force only to a surface layer of atoms/only along a line with zero width
12:19
so unless the cylinder is limited to the diameter of the node (which seems the most likely explanation), then why use a two node configuration for inertial dampening?
12:22
and the ability to create arbitrary fields with distributed micronodes seems really useful. Especially the fact that it vents waste heat directly as photons, which could be vented directly to space without requiring a radiator if you configured it properly
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a tractor/pusher beam necessarily has to be, in actuality, a cylinder that extends into whatever is being pushed/pulled, otherwise you get shennanigans with applying force only to a surface layer of atoms/only along a line with zero width
@Buggy well, a mechanical connection is also just that (in first approximation), a plane of atoms interacting with a neighboring plane.
09:32
... i only read the date after writing... well...
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there's a damping factor, though; all the other atoms of the material lower the jerk of any new force, like pulling on a slinky
09:41
also generally the surface of a material tends not to be as structurally sound as the interior. brittle objects tend to have a weak or crumbling layer from physical contact with other objects other objects may just have a weakened layer from repeated frictional stress or chemical infiltration metals and many other substances have a oxide layer paint is common and much softer and weaker than the stuff it is painted on, generally.
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fair point, but thats just ramping up the beam over more than a few ps
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(also dust, oil films, biofilms, etc)
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its basically just varying how hard of an impact you want with the grappler
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this is true, i guess it might be alright but it depends a lot on the details
09:45
... huh, a wide, short-range tractor beam could be a great dust filter.
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that depends on how small of an object a beam affects? i'd guess a tractor/pressor would pull on everything regardless of size?
09:51
you should be able to produce some standing wave patterns with variable filter widths though
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i though it was a area of effect, essentially creating a cylindrical gravity field tied to the projector
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then it would pull the air as well, no? or am i misunderstanding your use of dust filter right now?
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my initial thought was "if you just turn on a tractor and point it at the sky (in an atmosphere) the lens is going to get really dusty"
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ah, yeah, probably
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which then becomes a dust filter when you do it intentionally
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well, would be a downdraft, would need some way to fix the dust at the bottom
09:53
'd be a really long range air pump
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aye, except for close to the lens; once it gets close enough, dust would behave more kinetically than as a airborne particle. In other words, it'd settle really quickly unless there's a lot of airflow.
09:54
... and there probably would be a lot of airflow, now that i think about it.
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would make for efficient piping though. grav rotors at the ends of a pipe
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aye, no need to worry about pressure at all
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not more than in a freefall pipe at least
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in that vein, would it be useful for AKVs to use tractor beams for maneuvering in knife fighting range? depending on the efficiency you'd get a lot more effective maneuverability out of that He3-D tanks if you dont have to vent 3/4th of the stuff
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that would be interesting; the sorta-looks-like-a reactionless drive variant is hideously inefficient, but that's much less of a issue if you can use the enemy ship and your friendly AKVs as reaction mass
10:01
though, IIRC viable tractor beam range is even shorter than knife-fight range
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iirc that was for weaponised usage, with shaking/ripping targets apart, less jerk applications have probably longer effevtive ranges
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might be, depends on how range actually effects it i guess. If it's just spread, like a laser's focus, then it'd still be viable
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or its some hideous r⁴ power law and ripping apart is just hundred meters away from gently pushing over a kitten
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BizarroLand ♀ 09/03/2020 12:33 PM
Wait, vector tech lets you have artificial gravity?
12:34
That can't be an energy-efficient use of same :y
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oh yes, that's what it's used for on ships
12:43
as inertial compensators, for compensating for expected accelerations. Can't do too much about sudden unexpected ones, though.
12:44
and nothing says you can't compensate for all but one gee of the eight or so a ship might be pulling
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BizarroLand ♀ 09/03/2020 12:45 PM
you better have some torchdrive handy
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(standing in 8g is rather difficult, after all, even with the improved baseline. And not many people are content to go with a shell that can handle that for every trip)
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BizarroLand ♀ 09/03/2020 12:45 PM
to take full advantage of same
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BizarroLand ♀ 09/03/2020 12:48 PM
"Antigravity, like space travel, will probably have no direct effect on the daily life of the average person. Future progress in the control of gravitation, like all modern sciences, will require special projects involving large sums of money, men, and energy. - Forward, Guidelines to Antigravity"
12:48
Though at this point I'm digressing into my own setting again
12:48
(yes, the Tiffanians have discovered the graviton)
12:49
Ah, cool
12:50
Though I question whether maintaining ultra-fast accelerations is really sustainable or achievable without extraordinary amounts of fuel
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do keep in mind this is the same civilization that puts micromachines in their clothing so it can billow dramatically, even if there's no wind. Or atmosphere.
12:51
acceleration is more a matter of engine limitations
12:51
high specific impulse and thrust tend to be mutually exclusive, but you can still get both to one degree or another
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BizarroLand ♀ 09/03/2020 12:51 PM
Maybe there's some hidden potential in the flow-stabilized z-pinch drive I haven't seen, but even a high-performance ship can't pull 8Gs, ever
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also these ships aren't actually meant for relativistic travel
12:52
the max rated speed is 0.3c by the specsheet https://eldraeverse.com/2015/03/15/drake-class-frigate-spec-sheet/
Here, have a spec sheet… (certain items omitted pending further detail work). DRAKE-CLASS FRIGATE Operated by: Empire of the Star & client-states (export model only). Type: Frigate, Gener…
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BizarroLand ♀ 09/03/2020 12:52 PM
Not sure if this is otherworlds nymore but standard drive accels in Imperial Armored Corps are no more than 1/10g
12:52
or 0.1
12:52
10%, whatever
12:54
I had the impression there's no real torch-drives irl and the best we can get is extreme isp with little thrust
12:54
So I went with low-accel but fast-routing
12:54
(Tiff cruisers can cross 1AU in 3 days so they're nothing to scoff at still)
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part of it is the materials available, i think. Engine housings include muon matter reflectors, which iirc are perfectly reflective to even high energy gamma rays
12:57
er, not engine housings.
12:57
it would be uhh... the reaction chamber housing
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BizarroLand ♀ 09/03/2020 12:58 PM
yeah, I don't have anything like that in IAC
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this would substantially increase how hot you can run the thing without melting, which is going to help your isp
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we can build a torch drive
15:05
project orion (edited)
15:05
nuclear pulse propulsion
15:05
a modicum of engineering needed, but more or less ready to go within a couple of years if necessary
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Jade Nekotenshi 09/03/2020 3:10 PM
That's sorta a half-torch - ISP is good but not amazing - but for engines we can build with 21st century tech, it's close enough.
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its not a beam core drive, yeah
15:13
but we can build that thing right now
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DSD [He/They] 09/03/2020 5:23 PM
Mars in two weeks (Dunno how good a launch window), and we can scale it up to four megatons of spaceship. I'd call that good enough for now.
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Jade Nekotenshi 09/03/2020 7:20 PM
Close enough for now, aye.
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BizarroLand ♀ 09/17/2020 8:18 PM
I'd sign up for it
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I kind of want to use an artificial microsingularity as a MacGuffin.
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well, microsingularities are real physics, but might be very inconvenient without some phlebotinum thrown in
16:14
also they're really hard to make
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Like if the containment unit is miniaturized enough could it be carried by a human?
17:15
if we say 'carried by a human' is 100kg
17:15
and we just wave away the mass of the containment for the moment, so just a 100kg singularity
17:16
it'll be radiating about 3.6E28 watts
17:16
the luminosity of the sun is about 3.8E26 watts.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2021 5:17 PM
SUITCASE SINGULARITY
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The Face Of Goonery 08/07/2021 5:17 PM
star in a can
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i think this would make containment a bit tricky
17:21
it only has a lifespan of about 4.65118 x 10^-11 seconds
17:21
which is enough time for light to travel about 14 milimeters
17:22
so if your containment vessel (which, naturally, is perfectly, 100% reflective to gamma rays and heavier particles regardless of irradience), is bigger than a couple milimeters, the hole will decay anyway because the light won't have time to bounce back into it.
17:23
In practice it might actually be easier to pump a bunch of gamma rays into your reflective sphere instead of trying to keep it as a singularity.
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Enderminion 08/07/2021 5:30 PM
That's still heavier than existing stars in a can, particularly the American SADM
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much, much higher yield though
17:42
about 2 gigatons of tnt equivalent
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Perhaps it's easier if the containment unit magicallyβ„’ reduces the total mass.
17:49
Or if the containment unit is the MacGuffin and not a singularity in it.
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hmm... i wonder if relativistic time dilation affects hawking radiation
17:53
in theory, maybe you could have two black holes, and set them orbiting each other at extremely high velocities?
17:54
if the arrangement was stable over useful periods of time, that might be able to reduce the radiation to something workable
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2021 5:54 PM
that's how you get a chirp of gravitational radiation and then one slightly larger black hole
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that happens for big ones, but maybe smaller ones can be made more stable?
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2021 5:55 PM
I don't think it's related to the size
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huh. That makes things harder
17:59
maybe a naked singularity?
18:00
i don't know all that much about them, and they're also pretty speculative in the first place, but hawking radiation is a property of the event horizon. A naked singularity might be stable.
18:01
and then you could destabilize it by spinning it back down, where it would effectively instantly decay
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It seems like either I'd need a means a stabilizing a singularity or a generator device.
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0111narwhalz 08/07/2021 8:00 PM
either of which would probably constitute a weapon of mass destruction in the wrong (right?) hands
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I found "The Science of Superheroes" at a used book store and had a four hour car ride to read it today. A possibility they suggested for the Green Lanterns was that the Guardians of Oa had harnessed a black hole or white hole for power. And the lantern-batteries themselves could contain mini-holes.
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I've already established that one faction in this story has access to simulated gravity, and in the latest chapter the engineer started to consider the possibility of taking one of their salvaged supertech ship's black box gravity modules and loading it into a warhead.
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Due to low volume this channel has been deemed redundant under the Channel Reorganization Plan. Please direct future #technicalities content to #general .
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